Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Alternative Therapies => Topic started by: BrightLight on February 02, 2015, 09:10:02 PM
-
I may not be suitable for HRT and I am trying to find out as much as I can about alternatives routes. I feel pretty sure the phytoestrogens, lifestlye and stress management can go along way towards a healthy body and mind. Supplements for bone health and heart etc
But..............to be honest, reading around on the internet it seems that unless you take HRT you are doomed to degeneration without enough hormones. Is this really true? I feel so ignorant about this.
I do appreciate that HRT is designed with the idea of protecting all the function that estrogen plays specifically heart and bone health, but what about all the other things - skin, teeth, digestive tract, does HRT really keep EVERYTHING ticking along that estrogen did?
I am 44 and really don't want to be thinking I am going to have a lower quality of life quickly if I can't take HRT - there may be family history that raises a risk.
Everything I read is so negative about the menopause without HRT and I am trying to find the light. The closest woman to me is like a mum and she is 68 and had menopause at 47 and didn't take HRT due to her sister having breast cancer and the genes - she is doing great, looks fantastic. I have no other women to reference and struggling with my choices
-
I can only say that my mum went through menopause in her late 40's, and is 80 now. Never had an operation, never been seriously ill, still has all her own teeth and a good head of hair, plus all her faculties, is still able to live independently on her own, drive, walk etc...and no HRT.
-
The current information says that you need to replace the hormones that should rightfully be yours.
Osteoporosis is a big threat as is heart problems and vaginal atrophy.
It's very much a personal decision but I would really do my homework before I ruled it out.
If you have a look at the menus on the left you will find lots of information and treatment choices.
Honeyb
X
-
I can only say that my mum went through menopause in her late 40's, and is 80 now. Never had an operation, never been seriously ill, still has all her own teeth and a good head of hair, plus all her faculties, is still able to live independently on her own, drive, walk etc...and no HRT.
I do think life is a lottery ticket sometimes - but without knowing ourown ticket, except in hindsight I guess it's best to go with the majority. This is all so confusing to me :-\
-
There's no perfect answer. Everybody's menopause is unique, after all. I always assumed I would do as my mum did and 'ride the hormonal wave' through my mid 50s without HRT. However, an endocrinologist made it quite clear to me that having such a low level of estrogen in my early 40s would be compromising my heart and bone health. If it was more superficial things like wrinkles and spots, I may have thought twice, but not when it comes to cardio vascular issues. I am taking it - ' the journey' - a month or so at a time; just because I am on HRT now does not necessarily mean I will stay on it until I am post menopause. But for now, I feel like it's the safest option.
I am fairly sure that the previous research which identified potential risks with HRT did not not consider younger (under 50) women? X
-
The current information says that you need to replace the hormones that should rightfully be yours.
Osteoporosis is a big threat as is heart problems and vaginal atrophy.
It's very much a personal decision but I would really do my homework before I ruled it out.
If you have a look at the menus on the left you will find lots of information and treatment choices.
Honeyb
X
Thanks Honeyb
I am definately doing all sorts of homework - mind boggling trying to make a decision. I just wondered if there were any real life experiences from ladies on this forum.
I have looked at a lot of information and the videos from the Menopause Society are really useful. It seems to me there are 2 uses for HRT - for symptom control, but if women don't have symptoms, I am guessing they are producting enough estrogen for their body (?) who knows. Then there is the protection factor which I think is what I would be prescribed it for - using HRT to protect again bone loss primarily - this is the evidence I can see. Also a bit confused about the age, the guidelines stated under 40 yrs old for preventative prescribing but some gynaes use 45.
-
There's no perfect answer. Everybody's menopause is unique, after all. I always assumed I would do as my mum did and 'ride the hormonal wave' through my mid 50s without HRT. However, an endocrinologist made it quite clear to me that having such a low level of estrogen in my early 40s would be compromising my heart and bone health. If it was more superficial things like wrinkles and spots, I may have thought twice, but not when it comes to cardio vascular issues. I am taking it - ' the journey' - a month or so at a time; just because I am on HRT now does not necessarily mean I will stay on it until I am post menopause. But for now, I feel like it's the safest option.
I am fairly sure that the previous research which identified potential risks with HRT did not not consider younger (under 50) women? X
Thank you so much for sharing your choices/situation. I think you are right about the potential risks being different, my GP did mention in passing this isn't so relevant when prescribing for early menopause. May I ask if your GP referred you to an endocrinologist? These are the people that are best placed to advise in my opinion taking account your personal circumstances.
At the moment I am waiting for appointment with GP and thinking things through, it has come to mind that I could take the option of HRT for a couple of years. I want to cover heart health and bones, just not convinced there isn't another way right now, though the endocrine doctor information is supportive and helpful to me. Thanks :)
-
Briony - the scary thing is that having an early menopause does increase cardiovascular risk and I am aware of that, I wasn't clear whether estrogen loss was directly related or that HRT was preventative and from reading it seems that they don't really know. What they do know is that blood pressure and cholesterol rises after menopause and this is a clear indicator of rising cardiovascular risk. So as you say, it's so different for everyone and reading your post has made me think to make sure the doctor does a proper CVD risk assessment.
It looks to me as if excercise has to go on top of my new 'health plan' list - I don't do nearly enough. :)
-
"Then there is the protection factor which I think is what I would be prescribed it for - using HRT to protect again bone loss primarily."
All HRT will go some way to help this. However in terms of the medical side the medium dose HRT options and above are seen as helping your bone health and are certified to do this. Lower and Ultra low HRT are not.
Other non HRT options for bone strength are known to keep bone mass but have issues regarding bone strength still and have knockon effects to the bodies own bone building processes.
Not something thats an issue with HRT sourced bone protection ;)
In terms of CVD!
The longer you put off HRT then there is less chance of the protection people are percieving on this front.
This is why recent views have said that taking the pill into peri and starting HRT sooner is seen as better for us in terms of looking after our cvd , circulation and bones for the longer term.
Your CVD risk can change relatively quickly ie less exercise, diet goes bad and unfortunately menopause too.
So its great to think about these things however keep in mind that the longer we wait and put things off then the longer things take for HRT to help and repair.
However in terms of areas like CVD and circulation, urinary , va and some breast changes these will not be fully fixed or reversed if HRT if it is taken later.
:-*
-
Don't agree that low dose estrogen does not protect bones
http://www.jabfm.org/content/22/5/563.full
Menostar is one preparation that has been approved as an ultra low dose estrogen for bone health using a 14 patch replaced weekly.
http://www.4bonehealth.org/education/estrogen/
I asked my Doctor about this, she said it was not available in the UK yet, I did read somewhere that it was being considered, but as HRT is not considered the first line prevention of osteoporosis in the UK I doubt it will be.
-
Hi Silverlady
I did not say low and ultra low didnt protect.
"All HRT will go some way to help this. However in terms of the medical side the medium dose HRT options and above are seen as helping your bone health and are certified to do this. Lower and Ultra low HRT are not."
The only ones that can be prescribed "officially" for bone protection reasons are the medium and higher doses.
:-*
-
How do I take this thread down? I feel my approach isn't inline with the majority of members here and there isn't much support for people that are not using HRT - perhaps I have misunderstood the website?
To me menopause is more than symptoms - it is a stage of life and it means different things to different people and one of those things is coming to terms with new health risks and aging bodies. Those are the things I am dealing with really and HRT is just one of the strands I need to consider and make a choice about.
For me, I need to keep the bigger picture in mind as well as treat any symptoms because without doing that it all feels a bit depressing
-
The longer you put off HRT then there is less chance of the protection people are percieving on this front.
This is why recent views have said that taking the pill into peri and starting HRT sooner is seen as better for us in terms of looking after our cvd , circulation and bones for the longer term.
Your CVD risk can change relatively quickly ie less exercise, diet goes bad and unfortunately menopause too.
So its great to think about these things however keep in mind that the longer we wait and put things off then the longer things take for HRT to help and repair.
However in terms of areas like CVD and circulation, urinary , va and some breast changes these will not be fully fixed or reversed if HRT if it is taken later.
:-*
I totally hear what you are saying and if I have had abrupt Ovarian Failure I guess I am further down the path than I thought - but I am certainly not intending to wait 'too long' - this only happened 10 days ago. Perhaps I am just too upset with the sudden change to take any of this in - going to take a step back
-
I do support you whole heartedly Brightlight and there will be many members who do to.
When I first read your post last night my immediate reaction was to support what you said with my own views but decided against it thinking whats the point because from previous experience it has not gone down too well and it has in the past left me upset.
What you say is true this forum is pro HRT but there is another one on MM in Personal Experiences, "How do you cope without HRT" and HRT good or bad"
I have used very low dose estrogen ( I have had a hysterectomy) supported by supplements and preventative health, but I support fiercely the right for any woman to decide for herself what is right and works for her even if it is not approved of by the majority.
If you feel you want thread deleted then you can PM Emma and ask and explain why you want it removed.
I think you may find that if you don't removed it you will find other women will be posting to support you.
-
I suspect the subject of HRT or not is as emotive as any other female subject - breast or bottle, home or hospital birth, work or stay at home...they all bring strong opinions and divides.
If you are seeing a holistic GP, Bright Light, you will be reassured that you will be getting a balanced view on the subject, and hopefully the best treatment for you, both physically and emotionally. I think it is very hard to make any decision, if you are not clear on all the pros and cons and only have limited knowledge and instinct to go on. As you are not at the point of having to make a decision, and may well be feeling overwhelmed by the amount of info out there, might it help to make a pact with yourself that you will wait until you've seen the private GP - and then research any suggestions she makes?
-
I do support you whole heartedly Brightlight and there will be many members who do to.
If you feel you want thread deleted then you can PM Emma and ask and explain why you want it removed.
I think you may find that if you don't removed it you will find other women will be posting to support you.
Thank you very much for the well rounded reply. I am certain that a lot of my issue is adrenal fatigue and it really is my belief that this contributes to symptoms in menopause - so I need to address that as well and my GP will not address that unless I have a 'disease' develop.
Natural to me doesn't alone mean herbs etc for me it is wholistic thinking an integrative approach. So many women enter menopause in an exhausted state for one reason or another, I know I am and without addressing that, HRT will be helping but not necessarily healing the root problem. That is why we are told to address our stress levels, look at our lives etc......this is all a factor in heart disease etc. Saying all that, if low sex hormones do turn out to be my issue, I'll take the HRT as I would a thyroid hormone or anything else that I literally cannot make or be healthy without. If that turns out to be the solution to my problems I will be happy, but I suspect it isn't.
Long term balancing of our health and wellbeing is hard and if we have a hormonal imbalance pre or post menopause, for me, that is the issue to address. The UK doesn't look at it this way, the states and Australia take an integrative approach to the endocrine system much more and it is possible to find regular doctors that will take into acount your adrenal and thryoid function as well as your sex hormones.
Why is it that we need HRT much more than we did? I wonder whether it is because we are neglecting the stress and strain on the other systems and it's all gone way out of balance. I really do know that for me that my body isn't just suffering from low sex hormones, so I need to address it all and that's quite a big thing to tackle without the support of my GP.
-
As you are not at the point of having to make a decision, and may well be feeling overwhelmed by the amount of info out there, might it help to make a pact with yourself that you will wait until you've seen the private GP - and then research any suggestions she makes?
Thank you and I like your suggestion - I am going to take a step back. There are new crocus and snowdrops out there and I'm going to go look at those - although it's bitterly cold with a few flakes of snow.
-
I think also most of the ladies on here actually have meno symptoms and want to help those symptoms so they can get on with life.
You are certainly thinking well ahead and until the flushes etc started i never gave menopause a single thought thinking I would be fine.
Am sure you are right to be investigating it all now as heart disease is the biggest killer of women in this country.
-
Why is it that we need HRT much more than we did?
Actually after all the false scares we use it less.
I think what we are seeing is a resurgence of ladies unwilling to write off their quality of life anymore.
Whilst wondering why someone hid the information and solutions from them.
As I said on the other post best wishes in the choices you make.
:-*
-
You need an e.level of 300 to protect your.bones. i am in early surgical meno and was.told by nock.panay the top hrt guy that it was riskier for.me not to use hrt until 51 than to. It is.the.protection for heart health, bones, cognitive function which it helps with. I met a.lady at.the daisy network conference who had started early meno at 28 and had.not taken hrt at just 45 she had.the.bones of a 70 year.old. scary.
-
Hi Brightlight. I found your post really interesting particularly what you said about adrenals. I'm 52 post menopause and reluctantly started hrt a few weeks ago mainly due to tiredness which impacted so negatively on my life. I eat well I exercise and I'd spent the past year trying alternatives without much success. It's not my thyroid causing the tiredness but I wondered about adrenals - do you have any info on this as I would be keen to read up?
Silver lady you mentioned you have low dose estrogen; are you able to advise what you take and do you have progesterone too?
Thank you 😊
I have posted somewhere about a you tube recording of Dr Annie someone that I found interesting. I emailed her website to ask the kind of question that you seemed to be asking originally Brightlight - if a woman doesn't have meno symptoms snd so doesn't take HRT are we to assume she will experience all the health problems noted in her recording. I've not had a reply.
My sister is 58 and was full meno at 46. She chose not to take hrt. I have a friend who is 48 with very early meno - no symptoms just no periods. She has hrt purely for the health benefits and plans to stop at 50.
We all try to make the best choice but it can be difficult! x
Very interesting question, thank you!
5 years ago, I had a 3 or 4 month course of steroids for Crohn's, and ridiculously wasn't advised that I needed to take calcium supplements while on it.
An x ray a couple of years later showed degenerative wear and tear on my hip, so I was sent for a bone density scan, which showed no concerns.
Recently, I asked my GP about testing for thyroid antibodies but she refused, saying that even if I showed high antibodies, she would not treat because of the risk of osteoporosis from the thyroid meds.
This is the same GP who refuses to acknowledge my peri symptoms, so therefore isn't prepared to give me HRT to prevent osteo!
-
Hi Brightlight. I found your post really interesting particularly what you said about adrenals. I'm 52 post menopause and reluctantly started hrt a few weeks ago mainly due to tiredness which impacted so negatively on my life. I eat well I exercise and I'd spent the past year trying alternatives without much success. It's not my thyroid causing the tiredness but I wondered about adrenals - do you have any info on this as I would be keen to read up?
Silver lady you mentioned you have low dose estrogen; are you able to advise what you take and do you have progesterone too?
Thank you 😊
I have posted somewhere about a you tube recording of Dr Annie someone that I found interesting. I emailed her website to ask the kind of question that you seemed to be asking originally Brightlight - if a woman doesn't have meno symptoms snd so doesn't take HRT are we to assume she will experience all the health problems noted in her recording. I've not had a reply.
My sister is 58 and was full meno at 46. She chose not to take hrt. I have a friend who is 48 with very early meno - no symptoms just no periods. She has hrt purely for the health benefits and plans to stop at 50.
We all try to make the best choice but it can be difficult! x
Hello :)
Adrenal stress isn't recognised in the medical world as such although when lifestyle, excercise and nutrition are talked about, these are the things that support the adrenals. It's basically an over taxing of our stress response and I liken it to over use of a muscle, over time if we continue the response in our bodies/minds we can tire the system. Many things can exhaust the adrenals - for me, it was overwork and life stressors like bereavement and work changes that have piled into my life over the years. Although diet and relaxing have a huge impact as well and when we are stressed we tend to neglect this as well - we run on adrenalin.
One approach is food and you might find this link interesting as a start to discover if you are 'exhausted' in this way https://www.womentowomen.com/adrenal-health-2/eating-to-support-your-adrenal-glands-2/
I'd really like to hear the answer you asked Dr Annie about symptoms v future health concerns. I am suspecting there isn't an answer. I say that because how can we logically determine that? We are all so different and so many factors are involved. I appreciate the detailed research and believe it, though I prefer to acknowledge that other factors also play a part. All research is based on a specific area, we need to bear that in mind when reading it. We may be looking deeply into one area when the area of concern that impacts more greatly on our health has been forgotten ;)
So for instance, heart disease has been proven to correlate with emotional well being, blood pressure responds to emotional/brain activity. I have been reading that osteoparosis may start much younger than menopause for other reasons. We all have to choose areas to address and just hope they all balance out somehow, we can't do it all. I sometimes get tangled up with medical stuff that 'promises' solutions to one issue and forget that really it's a broadbrush unless you choose to look at an individual.
If I take HRT, I think I will just take it and not expect too much as it were - it will either work or it won't and I won't know until the future, if at all. But I do still have a dilemma with the absolute assumption it will protect me and that this is the only way. It's hard actually. I know my 'real' health issues, or at least my weak points and at this point I am not too sure what impact or relevance the menopause has on those. If that makes sense...... for the last 2 weeks I have been 'scared' into the idea that early menopause means I have a future diagnosis that is certain - heart disease and osteo - I am choosing to hold fire on that assumption for the moment :)
-
The other thing about the adrenal glands is that at menopause they take over or are at least a primary source of where hormones get made - so I guess if they are not supported well with rest and food etc they will be under even more strain and hormone production suffers
-
Hi Brightlight
I've been busy over the weekend and just catching up - I made some points about hormones and the adrenals and the endocrine system on another thread but can't find it at the moment. :-\
Basically there was an important discussion about how all our endocrine glands age - and CLKD and I and others probably put up some relevant links, but it won't hurt to put them up on this thread too as it's relevant. This is one on ageing changes on hormone production: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/004000.htm ie as we age everything works less well - and of course menopause is an extreme example when our ovaries pack up comparatively rather suddenly.
As you say, it is understood that stress has a huge impact on our bodies both physically and mentally to which anxiety contributes. This list of symptoms for a start indicates how our body is affected:
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/pages/understanding-panic.aspx and the sections on stress are quite good too:
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/Pages/understanding-stress.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/Pages/reduce-stress.aspx
These do focus on the whole individual rather than on one specific gland or area - so that individuals can benefit even without a full understanding of their body.
In terms of eating - we need to have as healthy a diet as we possibly can to support our entire physiology - and if the diet is balanced and unrefined etc, our bodies will work as they are meant to (other health conditions and lifestyle permitting).
I'm sure I've said this recently on another thread - so apologies if I'm repeating myself!
I think you are wise in your approach to HRT ie if you decide to take it - not to expect too much of it. Too often it can be thought of as a magic cure when the first and most important things any woman needs to do at this time is to take control of all aspects of health and lifestyle, including weight, exercise, diet, alcohol etc as well as stress and hormones!
Hurdity x
-
I have posted somewhere about a you tube recording of Dr Annie someone that I found interesting. I emailed her website to ask the kind of question that you seemed to be asking originally Brightlight - if a woman doesn't have meno symptoms snd so doesn't take HRT are we to assume she will experience all the health problems noted in her recording. I've not had a reply.
Hi Julesshappy
I haven't seen the youtube so can't comment specifically on what the health problems are that she refers to and whether it is early menopause she is referring to. However no-one can say that we will categorically suffer from and particular health problems except that our bodies will gradually function less well as we age - but each will experience deterioration in their own way.
However you might be interested in this paper which Emma linked to for World Menopause Day - which was entitled "Prevention of Diseases After Menopause" which gives a summary of the research so far looking at general lifestyle as well as hormone therapy - and their impact on diseases and conditions which women suffer or are susceptible to after menopause.
http://www.imsociety.org/downloads/world_menopause_day_2014/white_paper/wmd_white_paper_english.pdf
The way all of this works is through studies that give likelihood and risk eg of a condition or illness, and where trials have shown that a particular treatment has reduced the incidence of whatever condition or disease. It is never all or nothing.
It is then up to the experts to decide whether a particular treatment is recommended. If say - (hypothetical example) only 5 % of women would develop severe osteoporosis if they didn't take HRT up until the age of menopause, then few would be persuaded. If the figure was 50 % then most would decide to take it. Do you see what I mean?
The thing is we don't want to do the experiment on ourselves ie "Let's see what happens if we don't take it" and then find out our health has deteriorated. Similarly "Let's see what happens if we do take it" and then develop something that could have been caused by the HRT. We use the statistics and trials to make a judgement - and we try to trust the specialists to help us in this choice - most of us on here of course are reading up about it so that we are as well informed as we can be.
Bit of a ramble again but hope I have explained OK?
BrightLight - what a pity you have been scared into this idea so early on your journey - when you might not have reached menopause anyway, and your menopause may turn out to be a couple of years away yet. At least you are doing lots of reading :)
Hurdity x
-
BrightLight - what a pity you have been scared into this idea so early on your journey - when you might not have reached menopause anyway, and your menopause may turn out to be a couple of years away yet. At least you are doing lots of reading :)
Hurdity x
Hi Hurdity, thanks for the links to the stress related info. You are so right about the may or may not aspect of my situation and how I am struggling with this. I am increasingly feeling let down by the GP that telephoned me with his diagnosis and the way he delivered the information. I guess I have latched onto his words 'ovarian failure' unusual and you are at risk now and you need HRT ;)
I have been reading a lot to get my head straight and take a step back and am slowly accepting that this isn't as black and white as the doctor says and I can expect things to only become clear as time goes on - still, it's a lot for me to take on and I would rather things just reverted to how they were - ignorant bliss :)
-
Brightlight, I think you are doing exactly the right thing in exploring all options and opinions before deciding which route is for you and to see if there is any other way for you of alleviating unpleasant symptoms of menopause as well as protecting yourself from risks. We are all different and thorough research and consultation with our GPs and other specialists all helps to find our own way. Likewise hearing the experiences and opinions of others and their 'journeys'.
I had a very early menopause at age of 39 and really did not want any HRT at all. I tried all sorts of preparations and did all my research and after having weighed up all the pros and cons I was strongly advised by my doctor to use it to protect my heart and bones, especially considering I had to take thyroxine and was of slim build.They did convince me and I used a low systemic HRT until I was about 53 or 54 and since then just use Vagifem vaginal oestrogen pessaries. This was very necessary for me as I had severe VA despite the HRT patch.
I am now 62 and on looking back I am so pleased that I did take HRT despite my reservations - but I am also pleased that I looked into all options available and made a well informed decision. My decision.
Good luck to you whatever you decide.
-
Brightlight, your comment about adrenals is very relevant and I wonder if that has been part of my problem; much stress over past 3 years. I have had subclinical underactive thyroid as well, but my levels sorted themselves out.
I think that good diet, exercise etc are all important, even when taking hrt. Since my menopause, despite my healthy exercise and good diet, my cholesterol crept up, and even my good ratio started to dwindle so that was another reason for me moving to hrt, even for a short while.
Thanks for sharing your experience - I am having to accept that I can't know how this change will effect me and that's really a struggle right now.
-
Brightlight, I think you are doing exactly the right thing in exploring all options and opinions before deciding which route is for you and to see if there is any other way for you of alleviating unpleasant symptoms of menopause as well as protecting yourself from risks. We are all different and thorough research and consultation with our GPs and other specialists all helps to find our own way. Likewise hearing the experiences and opinions of others and their 'journeys'.
I had a very early menopause at age of 39 and really did not want any HRT at all. I tried all sorts of preparations and did all my research and after having weighed up all the pros and cons I was strongly advised by my doctor to use it to protect my heart and bones, especially considering I had to take thyroxine and was of slim build.They did convince me and I used a low systemic HRT until I was about 53 or 54 and since then just use Vagifem vaginal oestrogen pessaries. This was very necessary for me as I had severe VA despite the HRT patch.
I am now 62 and on looking back I am so pleased that I did take HRT despite my reservations - but I am also pleased that I looked into all options available and made a well informed decision. My decision.
Good luck to you whatever you decide.
Thanks for sharing your journey - right now I feel a bit overwhelmed, so much learning to do in order to make a choice. I can see that taking HRT might mean everything settles again and little aches or funny dry eyes, that only last a couple of hours right now, might just melt away - but then again they might not ;) At the crux of it, I am still coming to terms with accepting this change, however natural it is, I am not ready and would rather not be dealing with this. It is good to hear about your journey, thanks.
-
Bright Light, I'm like you. If someone could say, "you will feel rotten for 6 months, but then this will improve, this will disappear, this will happen", I think I would be able to weather the storm.
It's wondering how long I might feel like this for that is difficult. I feel like I'm in limbo, in so far as I have lost all ability to motivate myself, and the thought that this feeling could last for years is scary - I NEED to be able to get on with my life, to enjoy my children and my marriage.
If having HRT is what it takes, I'll take it.
-
Brightlight and honorsmum
I can really understand your wish to understand what is happening to you. The menopause has been called 'The Change' with good reason - we need to change in many ways to adjust ourselves mentally and physically to what is basically a natural part of growing older. The problem is this 'natural process' affects each women differently - it can sometimes arrive early and sometimes very late. WE are living longer and the quality of our life in older age may very well depend on what we do at this stage in our lives.
Flushes and night sweats are the symptoms that are commonly known about and I certainly thought they were something that would just last for a few months and then I would feel like I did before puberty!!! Nobody warns you that these symptoms can go on many years. Then there are the taboo symptoms of vaginal atrophy, bladder problems, prolapse, joint pains, crippling anxiety etc. - how many women are quietly suffering with these really quite nasty problems, too shy or embarrassed to ask their doctors for help.
scriv and I share a very similar story regarding our experience of an early menopause. We were given good advice which we followed - like scriv I only used a low dose of oestrogen and I think this is why I am experiencing such problems with vaginal atrophy and bladder problems now - I should have had a higher dose of oestrogen through my 40s.
Modern research and medicine is enabling many people with a wide variety of life limiting problems to live normal lives through appropriate treatment. Research has shown that a lack of oestrogen before the natural age of menopause (which is around 53) can and often does bring long term health problems. I personally believe the doctors who do not prescribe HRT for women who experience an early menopause are being negligent unless there are health issues that prevent that women using HRT.
'QUALITY OF LIFE' is very, very important and our mantra on MM is often expressed with the advice -"if the meno symptoms are impeding your life then try HRT to see if it helps". If you can reduce the risk of developing VA and bladder problems too early, delay the onset osteoporosis, reduce your risk of heart disease and bowel cancer then HRT is worth considering. If HRT stops most of your hot flushes and nights sweats so you can get a decent nights sleep and continue to hold down a job to help support your family, then HRT is worth trying. Anxiety seems to be one of the worst meno symptoms - so many women are now on ADS when HRT could and possibly should have been the first option.
HRT doesn't suit everyone but modern medicine is there to help and HRT is 'natural' these days - it can replace what should be there naturally.
I have experienced life without HRT - from the age of 49 - 53 I was not on HRT, I struggled through, hoping things would get better - those are my lost years and if I'd had this site to advice me at the time I wouldn't have held out so long. I'm about to turn 59 and I'm back on systemic HRT with Vagifem for my vaginal atrophy and bladder problems - I hope I will be able to use HRT for many years to come so I can continue to work, enjoy life and be able to support my friends and family.
I hope you don't feel I am pressurising you with this post - it's just that I have found the vaginal atrophy utterly miserable and I dread to think what it would have been like if I hadn't had HRT. HRT is a personal choice but there is nothing to stop you trying it for 3-6 months and if it doesn't suit you then you can stop.
Good luck DG x
-
Hi Dancingirl - I really do understand and appreciate your desire to share your experiences and advocate the treatment that has worked for you. It's only natural that you would. Of course you don't want other women to suffer symptoms when they don't need too and neither do I.
My approach at the moment is to work out what the symptoms are that I can't live with, are any of them 'signs' of degenerating situations and what do I need to do about that and what do I think about HRT for protecting my future health?
As you say each person is so unique and until I speak with my doctor I won't know what my plan is. I need to ask lots of questions about 'symptoms' and prevention. I am still of the opinion that my main future health risk that HRT is obvious for is osteoparosis - it is clearly a firstline treatment for that. What my risk is for osteoparosis is unclear to me right now and I will talk to my GP about that.
The interesting thing for me is that since I discovered I was having early menopause I have felt shocked and upset that I haven't taken care of my endocrine system better. My ignorance not just about menopause but the intrinsic role of hormones throughout our body. I have every belief that I have had hormone imbalance and subsequent 'symptoms' for many years (as I am sure other women have) and that actually the truth might be that I have already 'weakened' my system. So for me, this whole situation is bigger than just looking at whether I take HRT or not.
I do take it seriously that I have a hormone imbalance - naturally so at menopause, but other symptoms and challenges like anxiety go way back and regular HRT may or may not be part of the solution for me. I really feel instinctively that a personalised prescription is the way to go - if I can meet my GP half way and he agrees to test hormones as a baseline to begin with, then that would be great.
I am not convinced that estrogen loss is the whole story with menopause and hormonal imbalance, I actually think that estrogen dominance although controversial is the major problem of our time and that hormone therapy needs and should be based on individual need.
Testosterone is an important factor in bone health, for all I know I have lost this completely if my ovaries have failed. How is my doctor going to know that if he doesn't investigate my levels? I may or may not be producing enough estrogen from elsewhere in my body - I am also not convinced that the symptoms I have are indicative of estrogen loss, some of the things I currently experience could be low progesterone, testosterone or simply swings that will level without long term effect. At least I want to have those levels tested (I can hear people say that this is irrelvant ;) ).
The last thing in the world I want to do is straight away accept a blanket prescription that may just be causing me another imbalance - as you say it may come down to trying it out and seeing but I hope you can appreciate that I want to go into this with my eyes wide open and for me, a lot of this isn't an exact science and shouldn't be presented that way. Some benefits are clear - symptom control and osteoparosis but in my case, at the moment, it isn't clear what 'formula' is best to reach my goal which is hormone balance (my whole system) - whether that is a post menopausal state of hormone levels or one enhanced by hormone therapy or one that is a mixture of things that address the other areas of my life as well.
Really all I want to try and get is a more individualised picture of my own hormonal profile and how my body works, what it needs and how to get it.
-
DG, your use of the words "lost years" is so pertinent for me.
I can already see how that could so easily happen. Peri/meno may not be an illness as such, but it can have the same affect, mentally - I already feel like it's affecting my life in a disabling way, and since my children are still young, I feel they (and I) are missing out.
Quality of life - definitely. I won't be a martyr to my hormones.
-
Hi Brightlight
we've all tried to help you out and give you the spirit and knowledge we've built up so far.
If you are still confused or unsure then I suggest you read more and review what people have tried to impart to you so far.
However not sure what you mean by the comment to DancingGirl:
"advocate the treatment that has worked for you"
DG's not advocating anything, she's simply sharing her experience about what she's encountered, things she's done, possible mistakes we've inadvertently encountered along the way.
This is for your benefit to help you avoid the many pitfalls, avoidance and lies you'll no doubt encounter too.
If you choose to not go with HRT then there is a high chance you'll go onto develop some of the chronic things I've encountered so far in terms of urinary issues (now resolved by HRT).
As DG has also mentioned VA and other items are held with such a TABOO still that the medical people don't fully understand the extent of pain and suffering out there.
A lot of people still just put up and don't seek help and advice they deserve to have.
There is no point trying to paint these problems in a better light.
Its not there to panic you but it is what it is.
Some people
If you choose to go with HRT then that is up to you too.
We've tried to show you the latest video's on safety posted by MM site.
It shows you that upto date research is disproving most of the common held beliefs on HRT.
There is always going to be a risk of BC or Endo Cancer once your around 50 or more.
But those will still exist whether you take or not.
We've tried to show you that often our lifestyle will have more effect on this than taking some preventative HRT each day. The video highlights this also.
Take your time, its up to you.
For me at the time when I was deciding to go with HRT I felt let down.
Why had nobody explained this, what do I do.
I used this site and other information to make that initial jump.
I can't help but to say that I'm glad I did.
But I'm not telling others to jump the same way by just sharing my experience :)
:-*
-
Brightlight - there is mention of bio identical preparations on Dr Annie Evans site. Worth a read.
I suspect the issue of tailoring preparations to the individual is that our hormones fluctuate by the day/hour. So, not only is a single blood test not going to help, but presumably ,unless you're going to have preparations for every single day, even a tailored prep isn't going to address this.
-
Hi Brightlight
we've all tried to help you out and give you the spirit and knowledge we've built up so far.
If you are still confused or unsure then I suggest you read more and review what people have tried to impart to you so far.
However not sure what you mean by the comment to DancingGirl:
"advocate the treatment that has worked for you"
DG's not advocating anything, she's simply sharing her experience about what she's encountered, things she's done, possible mistakes we've inadvertently encountered along the way.
This is for your benefit to help you avoid the many pitfalls, avoidance and lies you'll no doubt encounter too.
If you choose to not go with HRT then there is a high chance you'll go onto develop some of the chronic things I've encountered so far in terms of urinary issues (now resolved by HRT).
As DG has also mentioned VA and other items are held with such a TABOO still that the medical people don't fully understand the extent of pain and suffering out there.
A lot of people still just put up and don't seek help and advice they deserve to have.
There is no point trying to paint these problems in a better light.
Its not there to panic you but it is what it is.
Some people
If you choose to go with HRT then that is up to you too.
We've tried to show you the latest video's on safety posted by MM site.
It shows you that upto date research is disproving most of the common held beliefs on HRT.
There is always going to be a risk of BC or Endo Cancer once your around 50 or more.
But those will still exist whether you take or not.
We've tried to show you that often our lifestyle will have more effect on this than taking some preventative HRT each day. The video highlights this also.
Take your time, its up to you.
For me at the time when I was deciding to go with HRT I felt let down.
Why had nobody explained this, what do I do.
I used this site and other information to make that initial jump.
I can't help but to say that I'm glad I did.
But I'm not telling others to jump the same way by just sharing my experience :)
:-*
Hey - I am exploring :) That's it. I didn't know that the menopause and it's treatment, philosophy etc was so political ;) I am an open minded person and definately reading everything presented, it takes time to form an opinion and I am trying not to let fear run my thinking - there is definately a lot of fear based comment on this website. Of course I want to take care and not bury my head in the sand, there is a middle ground to be found in accepting all experiences and opinions. I do feel a slight irritation and frustration towards me - that's OK, we are all different ;)
-
Brightlight - there is mention of bio identical preparations on Dr Annie Evans site. Worth a read.
I suspect the issue of tailoring preparations to the individual is that our hormones fluctuate by the day/hour. So, not only is a single blood test not going to help, but presumably ,unless you're going to have preparations for every single day, even a tailored prep isn't going to address this.
Thanks I will have a read - I suspect you are right about the fluctuating hormones, it's logical.
I am just keen to explore the approach of dosage a bit more, although the levels change there might be a balance to be struck at each stage of our bodies adjusting. The private GP I spoke to last week offered two scenarios for me, one to use lowest dose HRT through the NHS having worked out whether my estrogen was really low or not, ie as a pointer to where I am on the menopausal timeline. If my levels have plummeted or are still in flux - I understand that my particular situation might mean I have gone through the fluctuating stage and therefore a levelling out might be happening.
Second option to use a prescription, perhaps starting with progesterone and a small amount of estrogen (if my estrogen stores are still high) and then review in 3 months. My 'transition' appears to be fairly quick and I am mostly interested to try and find out where on the line I am. I do appreciate that mostly in perimenopause things are all over the place - it may be I have already gone through this phase. I'd like to find out.
-
DG, your use of the words "lost years" is so pertinent for me.
I can already see how that could so easily happen. Peri/meno may not be an illness as such, but it can have the same affect, mentally - I already feel like it's affecting my life in a disabling way, and since my children are still young, I feel they (and I) are missing out.
Quality of life - definitely. I won't be a martyr to my hormones.
I totally understand. I hope you can figure this out because I really have lost 12-18 months in not understanding my particular situation and now it appears hormones were indeed to 'blame'. I am not sure what you can do if the GP isn't open to HRT for you - they would not entertain menopause as a factor for me until the chance FSH result that I had.
-
I am not sure saying that if Brightlight doesn't take HRT there is a high chance she will go on to develop chronic things such as urinary issues is being very helpful..
We are all so different in how we age and what chronic problems we develop. I have never experienced vaginal dryness, prolapse or urinary problems. I have has breaks from HRT and not had problems, I am more off my patch then on it.
There must be millions of women in the world who live to a healthy old age without taking HRT.
BrightLight I think you maybe are over thinking the whole thing, HRT is no way imperative to take and if you do decide to try it and it doesn't suit you, you can always come off it.
Make you own mind up, ones woman's experience is not another's, we all have our own unique menopause journey, we all react to HRT differently, some thrive on it others decide its not for them and come off it.
I can't help thinking that worrying and trying to reason about it all causes more stress to the body and mind and does no good.
Take what you need from books, research and others opinions but do what is best for you. I do think though if you have been confirmed as having an early menopause, this implies ovarian failure and maybe HRT should be considered.
-
BrightLight I think you maybe are over thinking the whole thing, HRT is no way imperative to take and if you do decide to try it and it doesn't suit you, you can always come off it.
Make you own mind up, ones woman's experience is not another's, we all have our own unique menopause journey, we all react to HRT differently, some thrive on it others decide its not for them and come off it.
I can't help thinking that worrying and trying to reason about it all causes more stress to the body and mind and does no good.
Take what you need from books, research and others opinions but do what is best for you.
Thank you, I totally agree with your observations. Thankfully I am landing back in the place you speak of - measured, considered choice. I have allowed the whole 'diagnosis' of my mildly spotting period being perimenopause and various other little signs to get out of proportion. The reading and research is ending and I feel out of the woods on the panic reaction front and heading for the destination of knowing whats best for me again.
I have been a bit scared by the things I have read here and elsewhere and forgetting to remember that there are the opposite experiences as well. I lost all my confidence for a bit and only saw B&W options and outcomes.
I am taking up the offer of talking to my GP about HRT and take it from there, I now realise that yes indeed I can take it or leave it, try it and change my mind - pretty sure apart from getting used to this phase in my life, there isn't any panic - which is how I felt when I came here looking for information.
-
Oh Brightlight I really feel for you. I'm 44 diagnosed as peri meno at 41. At first I noticed my periods being every 3 months then nothing for 6 months and a couple of night sweats. I mentioned to GP and had few tests. I didn't hesitate at taking HRT as I didn't know much at the time. 3 months later the prog in Elleste duet didn't agree with me so I stopped. Read up on things and started panicking about clots ( my daughter had one to kidney followed by both lungs) and breast cancer (2 aunts on dads side although they never had HRT) so my frame of mind was I'm never touching HRT! I'll do it my way wanting to know everything about my body at the time. 6 months later I just couldn't take it anymore, flushes, palpitstions, dryness down below, feeling unwell, no control over myself. I spoke to GP and told her I wanted HRT I got Femoston 1/10. 10 months on I feel back to myself enjoying life again. I had a feeling my body was crying out for something and I had lost 2/3 years of my life. I try not to read bad reports, don't think about risks, all I know is everything seemed to be going downhill pretty quick for me and I didn't want that I don't look back now I just see it as I need it, I'm under 50 I want a life and some protection. I can understand your dilemma and wanting natural root, that's your choice just like when I wanted natural. We are all different, have different views on it. I just wanted to wish you all the best and hope to find something that suits you. Your thread has been really interesting. X
-
DG, your use of the words "lost years" is so pertinent for me.
I can already see how that could so easily happen. Peri/meno may not be an illness as such, but it can have the same affect, mentally - I already feel like it's affecting my life in a disabling way, and since my children are still young, I feel they (and I) are missing out.
Quality of life - definitely. I won't be a martyr to my hormones.
I totally understand. I hope you can figure this out because I really have lost 12-18 months in not understanding my particular situation and now it appears hormones were indeed to 'blame'. I am not sure what you can do if the GP isn't open to HRT for you - they would not entertain menopause as a factor for me until the chance FSH result that I had.
Besides my GP hasn't shown any interest in considering perimenopause, and because I suspect she is anti HRT from something she said, I have opted to go privately and see a women's health specialist, Dr Annie Evans.
She apparently does not go by blood tests, but listens to a women's medical history, background, symptoms etc.
I think whatever path one takes, the most important thing is to be able to trust implicitly the person in whose hands you place yourself - from all that I've read about Dr Evans, she is that person in a lot of women's s case.
-
Hi Silverlady
you seem to have answered your own point.
You use HRT so have avoided some of the chronic issues that come with menopause.
Even if you've had a break your body still benefited from it.
So your experience of not having urinary issues is not valid in comparison to mine which appeared sooner prior to taking HRT. This got better over a period of time whilst on HRT also as it has for others in the forum taking HRT.
I wish someone had pointed out these things to me sooner.
Should we all avoid speaking about the more distressing parts of peri and meno?
???
-
Wow - such a lot if interesting discussion and points being made!
Also great post Dancinggirl by the way (the long one a few posts down)
Yes BrightLight, as already said I think you have been scared into your current thought process by the GP and your blood test. It's really good that you are reading so much but you may well not need to panic yet! All the points made about HRT and health issues are assuming you are very near menopause - which you really don't know yet! You may well by an unusual case ie just miss one period and then that's it - but if not, there is no urgency to take HRT except if it will help with some of the symptoms that are affecting you.
Many women around your age don't even think to go to the doc about menopause if a period is missed - but I can understand why you did in your personal circumstances. So - for these women (like me - but I was older, I didn't start to take HRT until probably 18 months to 2 years after the last regular period ie flushes were coming and going etc) the first part of peri may well happen in blissful ignorance and perhaps women will attribute their symptoms to hormones without analysing too deeply and just getting on with life if they can - tears, worrying and all (in my case!).
You are only having an early menopause if your actual last period is at the ages mentioned ( ie before 45) - not the age at which you start to miss periods. So it is likely you will be some years below the average age of 51-2, but maybe not much - so at some point you might consider taking HRT for all the very good health reasons that have been expressed.
As I said on another thread, (or was it this one?!) it is not a question that you will or will not suffer from any of the health conditions - but all this information is obtained through statistics and clinical trials, many of which (relating to chronic diseases) were reported in the World Menopause Day paper I and others have linked to. There will also be statistics on VA and osteoporosis elsewhere too. One cannot draw any conclusion from any woman saying - well I had an early menopause, didn't take HRT and I'm fine (apart from being pleased for her!). Like I said on another thread - it's a question of assessing the likelihood of any of these things occurring - we don't want to do the experiment on ourselves, and therefore those who have read the information have shared it to help you.
As for the hormones and balancing them - I agree with silverlady that perhaps you are over thinking the whole thing. Aside from making sure you attend to all the major lifestyle areas we have all discussed, and getting blood tests for the main hormones that are affected at this stage of life - you dont' need to worry about the rest - they will just carry on working - the human body is designed to do this! You won't have damaged your endocrine system throughout your life - it will be working fine and doing its own thing with feedback loops - just keep yourself healthy and stress-free! Great to read about how it works though! You have stimulated me to read up on the biology where I am very rusty!!
Testosterone - it might be good to get this tested at some point or as a baseline - it does decline with age and affects some more than others and the test not readily done on NHS. However if you still have a healthy libido then it's doubtful there is anything wrong with yours..... Some testosterone is still produced by the adrenal glands as I think is progesterone, in men and women, so don't worry that you won't have any left! Progesterone testing won't tell you anything - because it exists in very small amounts in the first part of the menstrual cycle (the "oestrogen dominant" phase - usually when women feel at their best) as well as in post-menopause, and then in large amounts in the second part of the cycle ( and pregnancy) when it rises and then falls fairly rapidly. You can assume that when you miss periods you may well have an anovulatory cycle and won't produce any progesterone (this is why you probably felt calm - no big fluctuations - andf you oestrogen levels wouldn't have plummeted suddenly as they do before a period).
The only major change at menopause is the cessation of the menstrual cycle and the extreme reduction in oestrogen which is why attention is focussed on this - because its loss has such a profound effect on women's health and well-being.
Another ramble which I hope isn't too disjointed - there is a lot in your post I wanted to pick up on and sorry if I've repeated myself!
Hurdity x
-
Totally disagree with what you have said peegeetip.
I have only used a very low dose patch and mostly cut in half for bone health because I have had a hysterectomy ( (was 53) and I was not having any VA problems or urinary problems before I had the op or after.
When I was 56 I took a break from the patch for eighteen months and still had no problems. There is percentage of women who don't have these problems, I think its 40%, Estrogen for vaginal health is said only to be of help while its being used for women prone to these problems, stopping it causes the dryness and urinary problems to return, I have read that many times on MM. So there for my using a very low dose patch was not the reason I have not had VA or I would have had it when had 18 months break from the patch if I was going to develop it.
I only resumes the patch for bone health. Its the main reason I have used the patch.
-
You can have your view and I'll have mine ;)
The lower amounts of HRT options are not certified for bone protection anyway.
And if you cutting in half again then you'll reduce the efficacy of the patches even more.
As for the stats not sure where you get percentages.
The NHS site gives statistic in the 80% getting flushes and 84% for painful sex problems (normally a follow on from dryness, urinary and va related symptoms).
The figures are further skewed as a lot of us don't like admitting we have a problem either.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/menopause/Pages/Menopausehome.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/women4060/Pages/sex-after-the-menopause.aspx
:-*
-
I just wanted to wish you all the best and hope to find something that suits you. Your thread has been really interesting. X
Thanks for your well wishes, I am sorry that you experienced such a struggle, sounds like you have what you need at last x
-
Besides my GP hasn't shown any interest in considering perimenopause, and because I suspect she is anti HRT from something she said, I have opted to go privately and see a women's health specialist, Dr Annie Evans.
She apparently does not go by blood tests, but listens to a women's medical history, background, symptoms etc.
I think whatever path one takes, the most important thing is to be able to trust implicitly the person in whose hands you place yourself - from all that I've read about Dr Evans, she is that person in a lot of women's s case.
This is really positive news and I agree that trusting and feeling good about the support and guidance you get is really important. I watched all Annie Evans videos last week and the link you posted further up about dosing. I like her approach and style, she explains things in a scientific/biological but very real life way. Wishing you well with the consultation.
-
Wow - such a lot if interesting discussion and points being made!
Also great post Dancinggirl by the way (the long one a few posts down)
Yes BrightLight, as already said I think you have been scared into your current thought process by the GP and your blood test.
The only major change at menopause is the cessation of the menstrual cycle and the extreme reduction in oestrogen which is why attention is focussed on this - because its loss has such a profound effect on women's health and well-being.
Another ramble which I hope isn't too disjointed - there is a lot in your post I wanted to pick up on and sorry if I've repeated myself!
Hurdity x
ha ha - yes I have been scared into a panic - but it's subsiding :) I won't know until after the blood test and even then it all might change but it has been suggested that yes, this is a situation where my ovaries have stopped (for whatever reason). Saying that the rise in fsh is indicative of long term rising and not a surge, so although I guess it doesn't matter that much where I am on the continuum, it sort of does for me. Maybe because I am unsure as to whether this means I am not producing ANY hormones from my ovaries at all - this I guess is why I am waffling on about testing levels. ;)
I didn't go to the doctor for a missed period - I went for bad pain and burning in my lower back, hip and cocyx that accompanied the weirdest period with awful migraine, nausea, cramps and spotting afterwards for 10 days. They tested my thyroid and FSH to rule this out as the first step in diagnosing the cause of abnormal bleeding - the levels for FSH were 85 and the diagnosis is suspected menopause and the second blood test is to confirm this. I missed my first period after the blood test and my last cycle started 8 weeks ago.
Ovarian Failure is different from natural menopause, the ovaries aren't functioning properly, there are either no eggs or dysfunctional ones - ovulation can occur again spontaneously but unlikely at my age. This is why the second GP suggested progesterone only to see if they started again, she was referring to the strong possibility after a very stressfull few years that my adrenal function was indeed interfering with the metablosim of sex hormones. By that she meant very low progesterone, either due to adrenals using it for cortisol or low because of dysfunction and both having a part in ovulation. I am trying to say that if my ovaries have failed the hormones are not fluctuating in the same way as described in natural menopause. It makes sense of my symptoms over the past year and why since having no periods I feel very different indeed.
Thank you for the explanation about the hormone levels and testing - it is as much for my own interest as anything else that I think about what has been going on, for instance if my periods returned with some prompting from HRT I would continue perhaps in a natural declining menopause for another year, which is good for my overall health. Can you appreciate why it seems to me that I must do my best to ascertain if there are any avenues to restore my own balance naturally and that I might not be dealing with a 'natural menopause'.
Either way I have definately learnt so much about HRT and the risks/benefits etc from all the comments, advise and help on here and I feel clear about all that now. I just need to decide whether to let nature take it's course or use the HRT to attempt to restore cycles or to use it anyway.
I know it might seem overthinking but really I see it as learning about the possibilities of treatment while I wait for the full diagnosis - at the end of the day in conventional terms my ovaries have failed which is menopause and I either take HRT or not. I really don't have symptoms of major discomfort anymore, but if my system is not going to re-blance and operate on the low levels expected in natural menopause because of a different kind of 'failure' then it might tip the balance for me to take HRT for definate. Am I making sense? ;)
.
-
Brightlight -
Spotting, migraine type headaches with your period, aches and pains are typical meno symptoms. It will be interesting to know the results of your next blood tests.
I must just tell you that HRT does not restore your natural periods or trigger them to start again. If you are on sequential HRT it induces a withdrawal bleed which ensures your womb lining remains thin - your own hormones will continue to subside in the background. The HRT is simply maintaining a constant level of hormones so replacing what your body would produce naturally. This is why many women need to increase their oestrogen levels as they go deeper into menopause.
If you were still producing enough oestrogen then adding some progesterone would trigger a period but if you are not producing enough oestrogen it won't.
I hope that helps.
DG x
-
I started perimeno at 42 but did not use HRT till age 47 because I did not know I was menopausal and mistook the symptoms for other things.
No doctor has ever told me my heart and bones may be compromised.
-
I started perimeno at 42 but did not use HRT till age 47 because I did not know I was menopausal and mistook the symptoms for other things.
No doctor has ever told me my heart and bones may be compromised.
Hi there - I just wanted to clarify that it's possible I have early menopause, which is classified as stopping periods before the age of 45 and some women stop even earlier in their 20's and 30's - in these situations the loss of estrogen hormones so young can increase your risk of bone strength and heart disease. So you don't need to worry as it sounds like you are experiencing a natural menopause at the usual age :)
-
Hi Brightlight
just to confirm.
There is risk to our heart, circulation, bones etc for both early and usual age menopause.
My own doc mentioned nothing about bone health or any other benefits.
Doctors tend to concentrate on the the older negative WHI points imho.
As Silverlady mentioned she uses her patches to try and help prevent bone problems. However that has to be balanced with a dose that helps maintain bones sufficiently.
:-*
-
Peegeetip my post above was written to avoid misguiding about increased risk in early or premature menopause. I know that risk factors for certain things shift after menopause at any age when the body functions differently.
I've checked my current risk factor for osteoporosis and its very low which is reassuring, I think it's good to remember that risk is made up of many factors and we can only hope and try to maintain low risk with the choices we make and be aware of the risks we can't change that impact on us personally. Hrt can lower the risk factor menopause brings and seems sensible if your overall risk is high.
-
I'm confused now.
If you have symptoms of perimenopause, does that mean you require HRT to protect your bones and heart, regardless of age - because the symptoms show your oestrogen levels are declining?
What about women who sail through peri/meno? Should they take HRT, even if they have no nuisance symptoms?
Sorry if this has all been said, but every time I read a new post, it seems to suggest something different.
-
I started the patches after A DEXA bone scan, it was back in the day when there was money for them, my then Doctor( not my present one) suggested one because I was slim with fine bones and coming up to menopause and my grand mother had broken a hip or so my mum told me, the result was normal for my age.
I started the patch as a precautionary. Since then I have read all I can about bone health and its known that it takes lot less estrogen (only one of the protectors, and even then that has been challenged) for bone health, hence Menostar.
HRT is a personal choice it is not necessary for women's health after menopause to take it. If you do have risk factors you can decide for yourself but it is not mandatory.
There is even controversy as to whether HRT does protect you from heart disease.
-
Goodness what an interesting thread. I just wanted to add my own experience. I had a hysterectomy in 2003 and was told then I might experience menopause earlier, but that was the only advice I was given. I suspected peri menopause a few years ago (age 45) - tried a small dose of HRT at that point and found it didn't suit me - so I stopped. Now I'm 48 and the symptoms have hit me like a sledge hammer - the worst of which being the sweats and the sleeplessness and associated tiredness/brain fog. I'm now trying HRT again - and have to say 2 months in that I'm just starting to feel some benefit. I guess what I'm trying to say is its worth keeping an open mind (which you all seem to be doing!) - trial and error seems to be key - weigh up the pros and cons and make an informed choice - this has been my approach. I like to know as much as possible with most things, and menopause has been no exception. I do sense that it is an emotive subject, most probably because it does seem to affect our emotional health so much - as with most feminine health issues there will always be a "for" and "against" camp. I have found this discussion really useful, and am really pleased to have found this website and got a lot from it - at the end of the day we are all individuals and have to make our own decisions based on our circumstances and our own health situation.
-
Honorsmum this one is all confusing to me too!
From what I've read recently ( can't remeber the article) they are suggesting that you start HRT as soon as peri meno symptoms start to give a better chance of protecting in later life. It said that from around 40 even if you don't have symptons we should look at protecting through diet or HRT. I suppose it's up to the person themselves to think of this. Lots of things affect bone density, coeliac diesease not just meno x
-
I'm confused now.
If you have symptoms of perimenopause, does that mean you require HRT to protect your bones and heart, regardless of age - because the symptoms show your oestrogen levels are declining?
What about women who sail through peri/meno? Should they take HRT, even if they have no nuisance symptoms?
Sorry if this has all been said, but every time I read a new post, it seems to suggest something different.
It's a minefield :) Guidelines for menopause under 45, meaning end of periods, post menopausal suggest increased risk of osteoporosis and heart disease. All women after menopause have new risk for these things, I don't know the exact science but estrogen maintains bone density and is thought to play a role on cardiovascular health and by that they mean things like cholesterol and BP can change. HRT for menopause after 45 is only prescribed as per guidelines for menopausal symptoms not as preventative medicine, but you would get the added protection that they suggest HRT gives.
I think I've got all that right ;)
-
Brightlight I keep reading over the posts but getting confused. Are you peri or post menopause ? I think you said you are 44? X
-
Brightlight - I think your last post is pretty accurate. As I intimated to you before, menopause in the mid 40s is not necessarily premature meno but is an early menopause so for you HRT is not essential. There is now strong evidence that 5 years of HRT, beyond our natural menopause and before the age of 60, will give a protective element for the long term health of our bones and heart. I believe that oestrogen has a positive effect on the way we process fat which means our arteries don't fur up so much. Once we are post menopause we need to be particularly careful about fat and cholesterol whilst still getting enough calcium for our bones. This is why I am slightly baffled when a women's blood pressure goes up a bit and they immediately told they should come off HRT. Many enlightened GPs will simply give blood pressure drugs alongside HRT.
There is also evidence of a reduced risk of bowel cancer if HRT has been used for a few years - I have recently encountered 2 ladies in their 60s who have been diagnosed with bowel cancer - neither used HRT. Many women report that digestive problems like Crohns, IBS etc will often improve when on HRT (although this is mostly hearsay from women on this site).
Sadly the press have loved all the scary elements of risk with HRT, which under the age of 60 doesn't really apply and in fact the many benefits are underplayed. This is not to say all women should take HRT or will need it but I hope we will see a day when HRT will be routinely offered as a preventative as it could save the NHS a great deal of money in the long run and give us all a better quality of life in our later years.
It is now routine to give a flu jab to everyone over the age of 60 - I'm sure we will see a great many more things introduced as preventatives - whether we choose to take these things will still be a personal choice.
I would also like to point out that when I mentioned about problematic vaginal atrophy and urinary problems in a previous post I was not implying that you would get these things (many women don't get any problems in this way). However, it does seem that those, like me, who have suffered oestrogen deficiency too early are perhaps more prone. I took a break from HRT from 49-53 years of age and my VA problems really escalated during this time and unfortunately I doubt I can reverse this damage but merely manage it with ongoing oestrogen treatment.
I discovered this site about 18 months ago and it has been a wonderful source of information and support - I feel so much more empowered to do what is right for me - I hope you are beginning to feel the same. DG x
-
Hi DG,
a very good post.
However one thing to take from your comments.
"I'm sure we will see a great many more things introduced as preventatives"
Two things in relation to this.
Peoples general attitude to peri/meno being just one of those things (rather than a true condition/illness to treat) means that we have some way to go before people truly realize the preventative benefits you mention.
Its a bit like the way we now treat late onset type two diabetes.
Type 2 will not kill you but it lowers your quality of life.
Until recently that was also pretty much ignored and not treated.
I have no recall of anyone even mentioning type 2 till recent years.
To fix a problem often we have to agree that we have a problem in the first place :)
There are also risks that products will diminish as some companies realize the cost and distribution is not worthwhile.
We have already seen this in the UK with testosterone patches "for ladies".
These were removed from the market for commercial reasons.
Basically very few gp's prescribed it to ladies with Hysterectomy or Peri/Meno issues that might benefit from a boost in testosterone.
Use it or loss it in effect.
I hope we see things going the way you describe soon too and hopefully NICE will help with that too soon.
:-*
-
Good points peegeetips. Dg x
-
I really agree that hormone therapy will become commonplace in the future - for all sorts of reasons. It is becoming clear that the balance of our bodies - including blood sugar levels etc are run by systems that need fine tuning and ultimately will prevent major disease in the long run.
I don't agree than menopause is an illness - I do think that it has become a problematic time for many reasons and those must have something to do with longer life span, the way we live our lives, the stresses from environmental and food factors.
On the plus side, hormone therapy and the understanding of it's role is amazing, the reasons we need it in our modern world are also interesting to me - we can balance things out with medicine, which is fantastic, though there must be other factors in our evolution that mean these balances in our bodies are becoming problematic.............?
It's all very fascinating.
-
To be very controversial - one could argue that because it is no longer a matter of survival of the fittest our gene pool is weakening so certain genetic traits will be more prevalent. My grandmother and mother both had premature menopause - I got those genes but my sisters didn't.
External factors naturally play a part e.g. it is thought that because teenage girls produce so much more oestrogen than in the past and the use of the contraceptive pill is encouraged, our water is now quite oestrogenised and this is thought to be reducing fertility. Our desire to keep everything hygienically clean is giving rise to more allergies. My brother-in-law is a leading gastroenterologist and he actually encouraged his young twin sons to play with mud to trigger their immune systems.
We are complex beings and I think it is inevitable that more health and physical problems will emerge. We all have to die of something but while we live we just want a good quality of health. DG x
-
. Our desire to keep everything hygienically clean is giving rise to more allergies. My brother-in-law is a leading gastroenterologist and he actually encouraged his young twin sons to play with mud to trigger their immune systems.
My son has just built a mud kitchen out of palletts in the garden for his twin sons. I will have to let him know how good it is for them DG.
PN x x
-
Quick reply to yours Dancing girl ( although there have been lots of posts since yesterday so need to go back over them all too!) - it's not at all controversial - it's a fact. Medicine clearly and desirably saves people's lives who have conditions/diseases etc that they would previously have died from or would not have been able to reproduce, so many "less favourable" ( in terms of health) genes will survive and be passed on.
Hurdity x
-
I started the patch as a precautionary. Since then I have read all I can about bone health and its known that it takes lot less estrogen (only one of the protectors, and even then that has been challenged) for bone health, hence Menostar.
Regarding this specific point - the bone protective effect of oestrogen on bone mineral density is dose dependent so while it is true that a small amount of oestrogen will confer some protection - ie better than nothing, it will be far far less than a larger dose, and as I think peegeetip said earlier, only doses of 50 mcg patch are licensed to protect against osteoporosis. This will be based on clinical trials and percentages of women protected - and this won't be 100 % either, so even with 50 mcg patch you can't categorically say you won't get osteoporosis.
Hurdity x
-
There is even controversy as to whether HRT does protect you from heart disease.
Just a quick point about this ( in a hurry now!). The paper published for World menopause Day which I keep referring to says this:
For healthy women aged 50-59 years, estrogen therapy decreases coronary heart disease and all cause mortality; this interpretation is entirely consistent with results from other randomized, controlled trials and observational studies.
Sorry don't have time to elaborate but I would say that speaks for itself!
http://www.imsociety.org/downloads/world_menopause_day_2014/white_paper/wmd_white_paper_english.pdf
Would be interested to know where this is disputed?
Hurdity x
-
Just a slight deviation here for a moment - when I was resisting HRT after menopause at 39, my doctor at the time (a male) kept me in the surgery for about 30 minutes to try to persuade me to try it!
I was argueing that I wanted to do it naturally and he was getting extremely exasperated and burst out that I was misguided about my loyalty to nature and did I not realise that I was 'on nature's scrapheap' now that I had outgrown my biological function of having my children and did I really want to end up in a wheelchair in my 50s!
Well, I thought!!! I was amazed at the strength of his conviction.
Incidentally, I did then agree to use it. I had tried HRT whilst in peri menopause and it was very hard to get it right and I felt awful on it. When I used it post menopausal, it seemed easier to get the right dose/method. I settled on a patch for the oestrogen and 14 days of a progesterone which I tolerated well. This was all over 20 years ago!
-
Wow scriv - a doctor who really had your best interests at heart. Most doctors wouldn't bother to give such strong advice. I was 37 when my GP sent me for the DEXA scan and then simply said "If I was her daughter she would insist I take HRT". I was in quite a bad state mentally at the time as I had recently been told my son had a language disorder that put I'm within the Autistic spectrum and I was having counselling to help me cope. I was lucky to have a GP who was experienced, mature and that I could trust. I did as I was told and started HRT but like you I struggled to find the right HRT preparation for me for some time. Oh Boy am I glad I followed the advice and persevered. DGx
-
Blimey, Scriv, what a nice way he had of putting it! :o ???
Still, the truth can be brutal and it obviously had the desired effect.
-
I started perimeno at 42 but did not use HRT till age 47 because I did not know I was menopausal and mistook the symptoms for other things.
No doctor has ever told me my heart and bones may be compromised.
Hi there - I just wanted to clarify that it's possible I have early menopause, which is classified as stopping periods before the age of 45 and some women stop even earlier in their 20's and 30's - in these situations the loss of estrogen hormones so young can increase your risk of bone strength and heart disease. So you don't need to worry as it sounds like you are experiencing a natural menopause at the usual age :)
Hi, I think I had early perimenoause, cos even though my periods were still there, i was flushing etc My current hrt has really helped the flushes although some still come.
I am a bit concerned about the 5 years I was not on hrt.
-
I started perimeno at 42 but did not use HRT till age 47 because I did not know I was menopausal and mistook the symptoms for other things.
No doctor has ever told me my heart and bones may be compromised.
Hi there - I just wanted to clarify that it's possible I have early menopause, which is classified as stopping periods before the age of 45 and some women stop even earlier in their 20's and 30's - in these situations the loss of estrogen hormones so young can increase your risk of bone strength and heart disease. So you don't need to worry as it sounds like you are experiencing a natural menopause at the usual age :)
Hi, I think I had early perimenoause, cos even though my periods were still there, i was flushing etc My current hrt has really helped the flushes although some still come.
I am a bit concerned about the 5 years I was not on hrt.
I don't think the age you go through perimenopause matters, does it?
Since it can last 5 to 10 years, and menopause over 45 is not seen as early, a woman could well start peri at 35 and it not be "early".
I'm 45, still having periods but they are fluctuating in frequency and length, and I'm getting other peri symptoms which I'm hoping HRT might help.
-
Hi janm
So glad to hear you are healthy and well!
Sorry to hear you have experienced lecturing about a life of misery without HRT, and that you also feel that somwehere ( where?) there is an evangelical crusade to get women onto HRT!
In fact from reading on here I feel many women's experience is quite the opposite - that doctors are often more ready to prescribe anti-depressants than HRT for menopausal symptoms, rather than crusading for its use, and urge women to remain on it for the shortest possilbe time!
As I said maybe on this thread or another - an individual woman's experience is interesting, but cannot inform us about risks and benefits, short or long term, which is where the science comes in - not a matter simply of opinion but evidence based, through studies & data.
I like to think that those of us posting on here are giving a balanced view by linking to the most up to date information as it comes to our attention mostly through this site or by general reading - from the expert gynaecologists and researchers. The fact is that yes it is a questions of statistics and trials which can help women make up their own mind as to what they are prepared to risk in terms of future health. As you say - it is your decision but must be based on what is currently known.
I don't remember reading anywhere that women are condemned to life in a wheelchair without it, but scriv's experience was quite extreme although had the desired effect! As I've said several times before recently - do you want to do the experiment on yourselves - because once done it can't be undone eg go through an early menopause, try without HRT for 20-25 years and see what happens? Of course many women will be fine - but what if you were going to be one of those who weren't?
I am sorry that you tried several HRT types which gave you worse symptoms than without it - and I think womenin your position will have more difficulty in deciding to stay on it, - ie those who have an early menopause, do not have bad menopausal symptoms, and experience worse symptoms on HRT than offit - I can imagine it would be difficult to be persuaded to continue! Often this can be remedied with a different type and it's a pity that some doctors aren't sufficiently knowledgeable about this!
I hope you continue to experience good health! :)
Hurdity x
-
I have found this discussion really useful, and am really pleased to have found this website and got a lot from it - at the end of the day we are all individuals and have to make our own decisions based on our circumstances and our own health situation.
Hi - I agree. At first I thought there was a black and white solution to all this - feel rubbish or take HRT. I don't know where I got the idea from - my GP I think ;) Anyway your experience shows that things change and the challenge is to work with that and remain well as best we can.
-
There is even controversy as to whether HRT does protect you from heart disease.
Would be interested to know where this is disputed?
Hurdity x
I am pretty sure that it would protect some and not others and it does seem that research shows the timing of treatment is key in the outcome. When I was learning about all this for the first time I used NHS/Patient UK as my first source as this is the info my doctor will be working from (I presume). It is here that they choose to say outcomes are controversial and that HRT should not be prescribed to prevent heart disease.
-
I started perimeno at 42 but did not use HRT till age 47 because I did not know I was menopausal and mistook the symptoms for other things.
No doctor has ever told me my heart and bones may be compromised.
Hi there - I just wanted to clarify that it's possible I have early menopause, which is classified as stopping periods before the age of 45 and some women stop even earlier in their 20's and 30's - in these situations the loss of estrogen hormones so young can increase your risk of bone strength and heart disease. So you don't need to worry as it sounds like you are experiencing a natural menopause at the usual age :)
Hi, I think I had early perimenoause, cos even though my periods were still there, i was flushing etc My current hrt has really helped the flushes although some still come.
I am a bit concerned about the 5 years I was not on hrt.
I don't think the age you go through perimenopause matters, does it?
Since it can last 5 to 10 years, and menopause over 45 is not seen as early, a woman could well start peri at 35 and it not be "early".
I'm 45, still having periods but they are fluctuating in frequency and length, and I'm getting other peri symptoms which I'm hoping HRT might help.
Although treated the same Ovarian Failure before 40 is different from natural menopause and this is where the extra risk lies, before 45 and it is termed early menopause but it could still mean you have not had sex hormones in your system as long as optimally needed. Perimenopausal symptoms that come and go are different that ovarian failure and result in a natural decline and fluctuation that will end past 45 which in medical terms indicates to them that the ovaries have had a natural decline and 'extra' risk factors don't apply. Hope that makes sense :)
-
Well, Brightlight, the response as to what it's like not to take hrt after an early menopause has mostly turned into ‘the benefits of taking hrt'.
I went through it at 41 am now 55, and not on hrt apart from local (i.e. vagifem for VA).
I am NOT in a wheelchair, and not on the scrap heap.
Thanks for your message Jan - you are correct in thinking it can be all quite depressing when younger and I am glad to hear you don't consider yourself on the scrap heap :) If a doctor said that to me, HRT option or not, I would be walking out of the door.
-
Hi Brightlight
"some but not others" :)
Estrogen and its higher level in ladies are proven to be the main factor in the low rates of CHD and Heart Attacks in ladies under 50.
Not sure where you get that point but anyone who takes HRT will gain this benefit.
Your main point is correct that they are unsure about is when to start the HRT in peri to get best of this benefit to heart and vascular part of us. It could be when you starts sweats/flushes or might be earlier when we experience more subtle problems.
Latest views are that using the pill later into our 40's may help our heart and keep other symptoms at bay longer.
Either way there is a benefit or stabilizing effect on all that partake.
:-*
-
It really is an interesting thread - we are all coming at the topic from a different set of values, needs and approaches and it seems clear to me that perhaps this has something to do with the notion of 'for' or 'against' HRT.
I'd like to say that I am not against HRT, the fact that people have assumed I am does suggest to me a stronger bias on this forum of women that feel the need to defend their choice to use HRT or for some other reason are making assumptions and subsequent approaches to 'convert' others into the use of it.
I didn't come here to make a decision about whether it was right or wrong in the general scheme of things, I came to find out about the menopause and how I and others manage their health and lives whilst experiencing it. Whether HRT is part of the solution or not is obviously a big decision but to me, it's no more 'valuable' than me researching evening primrose oil, ladycare magnets, biodential prescribed hormones, anxiety medications or a change in life that might need making that is adding to stress at the time of menopause.
There has also been an assumption I want to do things 'naturally' and it has made me think about that. I am most definately not a 100% natural and wholesome person but I do approach my life in a way that believes in balance and cause and effect.
Something Jan said was how I feel about medication, particularly when the medication is being used for a complex/individual system as it is with hormones. I do have a concern about creating more symptoms whilst addressing symptoms. There is no doubt in my mind that this will happen with HRT or Biodentical hormones if I take them - by that I mean there will be adjustments and a need to be aware and fine tune and for me, that will increase my anxiety. I also think that once you treat something in this way that other things might be 'forgotten' or put out of whack. I might WANT with all my heart to get my hormones back (I do) and I might choose too - but for me I will be aware that potentially I am improving an area of my body above what it naturally wants to be like, so that other things will then be out of balance. ;)
If I can manage symptoms and changes as I go along, this would feel more 'natural' to me and if I get severe problems, which perhaps I will, I will continue to look for gentle ways to address them.
This site has been invaluable in learning about potential problems and awareness of the changes that happen during this time, I am better equipped to know what my body is doing. I guess this way of thinking is 'risky' in that I might not know that VA is indeed underway or something else is going wrong somewhere and HRT would definately give me a type of insurance and perhaps I will need it at some point.
For now, I want to try and trust my body and not overcompensate and judge whether I need the help of HRT or whether smaller changes and time will allow me to manage this whole transition. I can choose to stop the transition with HRT and that's a great option to have.
I don't however want to buy into the 'fear' factor and I have discovered there is a lot of that within this subject area. Fear and anxiety is one of my weak points and it's no surprise to me that it is intense around this time - perhaps all the other symptoms that are troubling at menopause are simply indicators of where our natural weaknesses lie (?) How we embrace and balance that is our own choice - HRT if used in a way to help ease symptoms and a transition seems great to me - if it tips towards use to hold back symptoms or changes that might need addressing at some point anyway or as insurance for health, is to me, almost as naieve as someone thinking eating lots of soy will solve everything :)
It is thought provoking and educational to have these discussions. I really think our values and ways of dealing with lifes challenges inform our choices and we all do that in ways that feel comfortable for us. I do find myself in the minority not wanting to take medications unless I feel confident in them and that comes down to many factors, not just research and risks - it's a lifestyle choice that I hope to hang onto for a while. I may not be able to, but I hope so.
-
Hi Brightlight
"some but not others" :)
Estrogen and its higher level in ladies are proven to be the main factor in the low rates of CHD and Heart Attacks in ladies under 50.
Not sure where you get that point but anyone who takes HRT will gain this benefit.
Your main point is correct that they are unsure about is when to start the HRT in peri to get best of this benefit to heart and vascular part of us. It could be when you starts sweats/flushes or might be earlier when we experience more subtle problems.
Latest views are that using the pill later into our 40's may help our heart and keep other symptoms at bay longer.
Either way there is a benefit or stabilizing effect on all that partake.
Btw JanM I thought you had been using HRT products as in earlier posts?
:-*
I am not as clued up on this and was referencing things I read on Patient.co.uk - the full text on the site explains all the factors of timing, taking HRT after certain ages etc and the point you take it. It does read that benefits are clear up until age 60 but also that it varies. My point is that as a medicine, it is meant to be prescribed in women past 45 for symptom control and not protection - of course I realise that it is chosen for protection purposes by some and that's fine. I am just not someone that uses medicine in this way.
-
Does HRT protect women from heart disease
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/women4060/Pages/women-and-heart-disease.aspx
Bone protection ultra low dose estrogen patch
http://www.docguide.com/fda-approves-menostar-estradiol-transdermal-osteoporosis-prevention
Well done BrightLight and janm on your balanced posts.
Women should not be frightened into taking HRT, to its got to a point even for me that we are frightened to take it and frightened not to take it.
I to am also fed up of always having to search for evidence to back up my posts.
As jamn says "Like everything else in life, the best thing is to weigh up everything, keep an open mind, and make your decision based on your own personal circumstances. In most cases you can change your decision at any time, and the main thing is that it is your decision"
Wise words.
-
I find the whole topic terrifying, if I'm honest.
I think I've said it before, but it really feels similar to the breast v. bottle, natural v. medicalised birth debates - women in either camp have their own reasons for their choices, and can sometimes become quiet vocal (maybe because it's human nature to need to validate your choices by persuading others it's the absolutely best thing to do?) and the choice is further muddied by the opinion of individual GP s.
The worst thing about the whole issue for me is that it's a topic you only consider when you're in the the eye of the storm as it were, and hormones are making you feel vulnerable, fearful , desperate and confused.
-
I find the whole topic terrifying, if I'm honest.
I think I've said it before, bit it really feels similar to the breast v. bottle, natural v. medicalised birth debates - women in either camp have their own reasons for their choices, and can sometimes become quiet vocal (maybe because it's human nature to need to validate your choices by persuading others it's the absolutely best thing to do?) and the choice is further muddied by the opinion of individual GP s.
The worst thing about the whole issue for me is that it's a topic you only consider when you're in the the eye of the storm as it were, and hormones are making you feel vulnerable, fearful , desperate and confused.
Yes yes to your last point - talk about bad timing, it's very hard. I think you have hit the nail on the head about how some of use sort of lose our own confidence and faith in our choices. After wrangling with it for some weeks, I am really really trying to fall back on my values, my foundations and what has worked for me in the past when I have had tough choices. As women we can really support each other with these choices, not just with information giving (which is always useful) but emotionally. Sharing confidence and belief in each other. With that note I really wish you all that you need as you make your way through this maze of information and decisions :) I am thinking there will be relief for us both when we decide what action we want and need to take.
-
Does HRT protect women from heart disease
Well done BrightLight and janm on your balanced posts.
Women should not be frightened into taking HRT, to its got to a point even for me that we are frightened to take it and frightened not to take it.
Thank you and yes I agree about this fear factor - lets remove it :) There isn't a right or wrong, there is only an informed choice. That, as you say is undoable. Hurray........freedom :)
-
Nobody is frightening anyone into taking HRT!
You just have to do a few searches on this forum to see the extent of the problems out there on this site alone.
Any subject that deals with normally private parts of our lives is never going to read well to some.
We can't sugar coat some of the topics on what we've experienced.
As Brightlight has said a few times now, she can read and make up her own mind in her own time.
If she chooses either way it wont affect me directly.
I'll be glad for her and supportive either way on this forum.
HRT certainly affected me but also those around me.
I've said a few times I actually felt a failure at the start for taking HRT at all.
This was partly due to how my doc put it across to me but also a general feeling out there that we should put up with a lower quality of life (that I was decending into) and just get on with it.
This was just wrong for me and I see that now but thats my view.
This gets to the core of where I'm concerned about the way we see and treat peri and meno.
If someone started thyroid or type two diabetes drugs no one would raise an eyelid.
We'd take it gladly from our doctor and understand that our body was not working in the way we'd like.
Why is it when we get to the letter M for menopause we suddenly "loose" our minds and are wracked with the choice we've got to make?
Is it due to all the attitude to it, or the scare stories out there about BC etc(when we are told smoking and alcohol are far more damaging to that part of our body) or feeling less of a woman or the ignorance that exist etc etc.
I don't suddenly see all my friends drinking less or becoming teetotal btw.
So why such angst and soul searching about the HRT when other things impact our general health much more?
Perhaps some might look at these other dangers in context for their quest for the answer.
I for one have never had the same guilt trip on alcohol from my doc that I was given for HRT.
I find that quite unusual and quite a biased starting point already.
The only other thing in recent years that's come close to this situation of fear with peri and meno is the MMR debacle. Once parents gladly chose to have their children immunized. Then someone throws up a scare story and suddenly we all suddenly question the validity of this.
I'm not in any camp and certainly not pro anything apart from my DH and family that put up with me so far through my peri years so far (thank goodness).
This is a forum for discussion and we should not try to pigeon hole those who are trying to pass on their experience and understanding thus far.
I could pass judgment on others on the forum but that would be rude.
It is what it is ;)
If someone asks and I have time I will always try to pass on my thoughts and information.
If that requires me to back things up with another piece of information then I'll gladly provide it.
:-*
-
Well said peegeetips
Honorsmum - I think you hit the nail on the head when you say "we only consider the menopause when we are in the eye of the storm" - probably not the easiest time to make rational decisions! There is so much debate and the scaremongering against HRT has been so powerful, it makes our decisions of whether to treat meno symptoms or not very challenging. For me HRT is the lesser of the evils - I would love to be one of those lucky ladies who either sail through the meno or just have symptoms for a couple of years. Only you can decide whether it's right for you or not - all I will say is "don't be scared of trying HRT - you won't know till you try it".
This thread asks 'Anyone had early menopause and not used HRT' - well my mother had a premature menopause and didn't have HRT - she is now 86 and though she has shrunk by about 4 inches she is actually quite fit and active and I'm sure there must be plenty of other women who had early/premature menopause out there who are also doing well.
janm - I am so sorry to hear that your had such a bad time and that HRT didn't help you - it doesn't suit everyone and it's a real shame you were not given better help. I do wonder if, had you had better advice and guidance in finding appropriate treatment, you might now be feeling differently?
I feel I must take issue with you about your comments regarding HRT and other drugs. You describe HRT as an "easy approach" and I find this somewhat condescending. This is implying that women are weak if they choose to treat their meno symptoms with HRT. All too often women are told by their GPs to "Ride the Storm". I think I read on a post that one women went to her GP complaining that sex was terribly painful and her GP told her she needed to have sex more regularly to toughen things up (or words to that effect) - frankly outrageous!!!! :( You talk about 'mothers little helper' and I assume you are referring to valium and other ADs? The modern types of ADs/SRRIs act in very different ways to the old fashioned types and are a valuable way to treat many forms of anxiety, depression and often menopause symptoms as well. If appropriately prescribed these drugs can and do offer great benefits, however taking ADs/SSRIs is still something that many feel is a sign of weakness and we need to change this view if we are to address society's attitude to depression, anxiety and support people with these problems better.
I have experienced life with and without HRT - i feel it is wrong to assume that you will just experience the bad symptoms later when you come off HRT. Nobody can tell us how long meno symptoms will last - for some it is a few months to 2 years, for others it can be 10 or more years. When is a good time to go through this stage - assuming the symptoms do return after HRT? In our 40s and 50s when we have to work, support our families and older relatives or later when we are retired and have more time to concentrate on ways to cope?
My first 3 year break from HRT (my lost years)was horrible, life was stressful at the time and I kept hoping the symptoms would subside - sadly they didn't. My second break from HRT 4 years later wasn't nearly so bad and I actually coped quite well apart from the terrible discomfort of the VA and urinary problems. I have always tried to eat well and do lots of brisk walking etc. but this time I was able to cut back on the amount of work I did - TBH I had to as I was getting so tired through lack of sleep. I decided to go back on HRT for a variety of reasons and I have to say life is sooo much better with HRT.
Have I taken the 'easy approach'? I need to be able to work for at least the next 7 years, I want to be a nice person to live with and not feel tetchy and tired all the time, I don't want to be constantly going to the GP in the hope I will get some magic treatment to help my VA and bladder problems and I want to cuddle my husband without feeling horribly hot.
At 58 I have made the informed choice, knowing there is a small risk of breast cancer, to take the 'easy approach' to getting my energy and quality of life back, not just for myself but also for my family and friends who depend on me being at my best. I am now able to do more work again as well which takes the pressure off my lovely husband.
As Hurdity rightly pointed out, the science and research is telling us a great deal about the ageing process and is trying to help us lead a longer healthier life.
IT IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL WHETHER THEY CHOOSE TO FOLLOW RECOMMENDED ADVICE OR NOT. We are told to give up smoking but there are those that smoke and drink into their 80s and 90s without any real problems - our generation have been given more information and it's up to us to make positive choices or take the risks.
Time will tell whether HRT is a truly good idea or not - the research is now swinging more in favour on many fronts. None of us know what the future will bring - we just have to live in the here and now.
I feel terribly sorry for those who suffer bad meno symptoms and for one reason or another do not find a way to treat them - this is really tough.
What an awful ramble - so sorry :-\ Dg xxxxx
-
Thanks DG, its good to better understand your journey.
But certainly not a ramble. You covered so much in your great post :)
I'm hoping by the time I get to 5 years I wont have any doc pestering me to have a break, cut down or stop (if thats why you stopped for a break).
Its a pity so few of us "sail our way through" ;)
Thanks
:-*
-
Nobody is frightening anyone into taking HRT!
HRT certainly affected me but also those around me.
I've said a few times I actually felt a failure at the start for taking HRT at all.
This was partly due to how my doc put it across to me but also a general feeling out there that we should put up with a lower quality of life (that I was decending into) and just get on with it.
This gets to the core of where I'm concerned about the way we see and treat peri and meno.
If someone started thyroid or type two diabetes drugs no one would raise an eyelid.
We'd take it gladly from our doctor and understand that our body was not working in the way we'd like.
Why is it when we get to the letter M for menopause we suddenly "loose" our minds and are wracked with the choice we've got to make?
Is it due to all the attitude to it, or the scare stories out there about BC etc(when we are told smoking and alcohol are far more damaging to that part of our body) or feeling less of a woman or the ignorance that exist etc etc.
:-*
I totally respect where you are coming from and sorry that you were made to feel this way about taking HRT when you felt and have experienced it's benefit for you. I do disagree about the fear factor - I think fear plays a major part in the topic of HRT and I had no idea and wish it wasn't so. It should be offered and explained in the same way as any other treatment choice - this forum does a great job of helping women understand it all. I do think there is a lack of support for women that don't take it and find other ways, but perhaps that is because they don't engage online or because the only recognised options are medications of one sort or another (?)
I really can appreciate that we all approach things differently, I would not class the menopause in the same category as diabetes or thyroid conditions unless it was ovarian failure at a young age. These are real and permanent 'failures' of the body. Saying that, I also don't dispute that ongoing and challenging symptoms shouldn't be treated with hormone replacement, it is a hormonal imbalance and HRT is the proven remedy in medical terms. I do wonder why so many people on here don't seem to feel good though - that the imbalance continues in some way, but perhaps I am mis-reading and that's only at the start when sorting out the regime etc.
I also think that this forum is invaluable for anyone taking HRT - there is no way on this planet I could imagine visiting my doctor with all sorts of questions or concerns when taking it - I would be left to get on with it. That's another concern of mine - you ladies that 'manage' your own treatment are braver than I am and that's another aspect of the fear for me.
My partner recently had to start taking a medication and the side effects and changes to his body have been quite profound, it's the first time either of us have taken anything long term and I have to be honest it's caused so much stress. He feels unwell in a different way but isn't actually unwell (?) That's just what happens I suppose - he tried, as I will to balance things in life to avoid medication but it didn't work.
-
Time will tell whether HRT is a truly good idea or not - the research is now swinging more in favour on many fronts. None of us know what the future will bring - we just have to live in the here and now.
Thanks for your post - the experience of you and your mother just shows how individual an experience it is and you have both found your own ways to get on with your lives. I didn't think you were rambling, it was interesting.
-
I think menopause absolutely can be compared to thyroid problems, insofar as neither is static. Have a read of any thyroid forum and you will find the same sorts of posts as on here - "my doctor says my bloods are fine, but I don't feel good. Should I change my dose?" Likewise, many GPs treat thyroid issues entirely on blood tests and not symptoms, and refuse to run more than basic tests if the results show "normal". Also, the way the majority of doctors medicate thyroid problems is also a problem - have a look at the Stop The Thyroid Madness site.
Why are fluctuating sex hormones seen as any different? Just because menopause is something every woman goes through, why can't we treat it with the same respect (for want of a better word) as thyroid problems?
My daughter is 11 and diagnosed with ADHD at 7. It won't kill her, it's not an illness as such, but she is medicated. I can't begin to tell you how much controversy exists over medicating children with ADHD, and even whether ADHD exists - some people believe it is simply lazy parenting, too much junk food, not enough discipline, and some people believe that medicating is doping your children for an easier life; "kiddy cocaine" is what it is described as.
I can tell you that the difference it's made to her has been HUGE, not only academically but in a "quality of life" way.
I see the whole menopause issue in a similar way - we are talking about chemical imbalances that can have a huge impact, even if not life-threatening.
-
Honorsmum - I see your point about thyroid and hormonal imbalance being similar and I totally agree about the way thyroid problems are treated. In the realms of clinical practise though thyroid issues are only treated when deemed dysfunctional enough and that's it. I think sub clinical thryoid issues ought to be treated to attempt to resolve the imbalance first but a holistic view of the patient is needed in my opinion and that isn't what clinical practise does - it is reductionist. I agree that hormonal issues for women should be taken more seriously, where I think we differ is that I think early balancing of these issues can resolve them. That's why I don't see them as the same as thryoid/diabetes as treated in clinical NHS practise.
I totally understand the attitude about ADHD - and I really do see similarities with hormone and thyroid issues, my own personal view is that medicine should and will shift to understanding these chemical imbalances more and ways of treating them - either by medicine to rebalance or other ways that restore function. I have worked with children and teenagers with ADHD and have a dear friend with a son with ADHD and othe difficulties.
My reference to thyroid issues are in relation to my nephew who has down syndrome, who had low thyroid function blood tests, my sister treated him without medication via other means and his levels restored. A year later the levels were not good again, she took him to a 'functional medicine doctor' which is a more wholistic route for extensive tests - the thing that the regular medical profession didn't pick up was that he wasn't low in the thyroid hormones as such, it was a case of them not 'firing' correctly - consequently it was down to my sister to find the right treatment before resigning herself to the medication that was offered which wouldn't have solved the problem. My nephew is fine now. It's all very complicated and I don't begin to understand fully, but I do believe better attention is needed to all these conditions.
-
honorsmum - You make some very good points. Life has taught me that we must keep an open mind and make our own judgements having had professional advice and done comprehensive research. Too many people are willing to think the worst and judge peoples actions without finding out the background and reasoning.
When my son was diagnosed with a language disorder that put him loosely on the autistic spectrum, my sister-in-law tried to reassure me that he would be fine once they taught me the right parenting skills !!!!! :-\
She proceeded to tell me I needed to read to him more and not let him watch television. >:( She rarely saw him and never bothered to ask how or why he had been given this diagnosis - she just assumed I wasn't teaching him to talk in the right way. My son was 4 when he was diagnosed and had had speech therapy for 2 years because I had been concerned very early on that there was something wrong. The speech therapist had given me strategies to encourage his communication - everything needed visual backup - he learned a lot of his language through television and video because there was the visual to illustrate the words. Reading to him was pointless as he simply didn't understand the words. My daughter was actually his best therapist(she was only 2 years older than him and we never asked her to help him) - she quickly picked up on the strategies he needed and it was delightful to hear her chatting away to him as they played together. HE spoke his first full sentence at four and a half - all the words were in the wrong order but we understood what he wanted to tell us - oh the joy! We were doing some craft work at the kitchen table late afternoon and the light was fading; he suddenly said " No more dark in room" !!!!! he wanted the light on! :)
He is 25 now, he left school with 6 GCSEs, he has done a variety of jobs, he passed his driving test first time and his difficulties are very subtle now - but he is one of life's vulnerable souls. Sadly my sister-in-law now has a granddaughter who is autistic and it seems she is an expert on this subject :-X I grit my teeth as she tells me all about the therapy etc her granddaughter is getting - clearly I know nothing.
I know this is really branching away from the theme of this thread but I wanted to reinforce your point about people being ill informed and judgmental. Dg x
-
Brightlight - I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet. :)
DG - thank you for sharing your experiences with your son. How lucky he was to have you as his advocate. :)
My daughter was my first baby. I knew she was different from being very tiny. I did everything I could to be a "perfect" parent - I breastfed her for 18 months, weaned her at 6 months on all organic, homecooked food, she never had a dummy, took her to all sorts of baby classes etc. So you can imagine how we felt when we were asked to consider medication when she was 7. I cried buckets - I'd failed her, somehow, and now I was going to poison her. I researched and waded through countless reports of ADHD being a modern phenomena of rubbish parenting, the horrific dangers of "drugging" children for a quiet life etc. - but was faced with a child that had such poor short term memory she couldn't remember how to write her own name the way twice, couldn't learn to read, couldn't remember her friend's names, had no impulse control, couldn't stop moving etc. We gave her the first tablet, and she said, "mummy, my brain has gone quiet!" She is now thriving at school, got the lead role and memorized a long script for the school play, is happy and focused, and our quality of life as a family is better.
It really does draw parallels with menopause treatment for me - as has been said, it's about weighing up all considerations and doing what's right for your particular set of circumstances...and ignoring those that don't agree with your choices.
-
Honorsmum - goosebumps reading "mummy, my brain has gone quiet!" Blessed relief for her, for you, that this route proved effective - you both sound like aware, attentive and loving parents to me :)
-
Honorsmum - goosebumps reading "mummy, my brain has gone quiet!" Blessed relief for her, for you, that this route proved effective - you both sound like aware, attentive and loving parents to me :)
Thank you.xxx
Yes, quite an incredible moment - even her consultant remarked what a perceptive observation that was for a 7 year old.
-
I don't work with children anymore but my heart will always be stirred by memories of amazing individuals, those with challenges, those without, there is more than meets the eye, the rule books etc with ALL of us. Though I have noticed that many of the children with additional needs or challenges have incredible insight, whether that is the parenting, which I think it might be or the mere human spirit that is determined, I don't know.
I think if all children feel they have the freedom to adapt, learn, change, express and find their way in a supportive environment at a young age, they are set for life, whatever there particular 'make-up' is.
My friends son is finally learning enough about himself to challenge his own behaviour, he might not be able to stop his anxieties all the time, but he talks in a way that us adults have to learn from Claire Weekes books! He says, mummy 'that's just my angry brain and I think I need to go and distract myself' x
-
Sadly, I think you have totally misunderstood us on this thread, janm.
-
Some great posts on this thread. Just wondered if any of you still on forum and if so, how you're feeling/getting on now? X
-
Jari - this and the others are very old threads and members are often not posting any more or have left - maybe start a new one?
Hurdity x
-
Thanks Hurdity for pointing that out! :). I was just wondering how they were doing, but as you say, they've no doubt moved on now and have it behind them. Thank you!