Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: SilverFairy on April 27, 2014, 02:41:40 PM
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Is anyone here just taking bio identical Progesterone for their menopause symptoms?
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That's an interesting question. I have always thought that most of the meno symptoms such as hot flushes, dry skin, vaginal problems are caused by too little oestrogen and that the progesterone is only added to protect the womb so this is something new to me. I'm sure someone will be along soon to give their advice. I know that some women do feel better on the progesterone phase of HRT - sadly I'm not one of them!
Taz x
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I did progesterone only for over a year and it helped all my symptoms but I only had symptoms during the two weeks from ovulation I.e. When estrogen drops and you should have high progesterone levels! I didn't as my progesterone has been zero for a few years! Even now I am using progesterone daily as if I don't I get terrible anxiety, fatigue etc. the daily progesterone helps so much. My specialist felt that using for only 12 days was too much for me with the rapid rise and falls
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hi please could you tell me what one you are on,progesterone that is, I haven't a womb or cervix, but still overies, I have my trouble after the 23rd of each month for two weeks, that's when I would of had a period, ???
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I was using ultrogestan but am now using compounded progesterone cream which I get on prescription (but I live in canada). Are you on estrogen?
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I was on my third HRT regime, which I had researched (this site and many more!) I had to give up the previous two due to bad headaches. I believed, again by research, that it was the progesterone causing these (I had suffered badly from PMT before my menopause) so was looking to try bio identical.
I chose to ask for Utrogestan 100mg and Estrodot 25mg. I had been on it for about 6 weeks? when I came across a website extolling the virtues of Progesterone only HRT. I was a tad cynical, as they also sold the product, but read all I could because I was still getting vague headaches (although it may not have been due to the HRT) and weight gain, which almost certainly was!!
I also have Graves and felt the oestrogen (an anti thyroid, for want of the scientific term!) was making me more hypo.
According to the website, if your Vitamin D levels are too low (and some other things, you would need to read through) and the amount of progesterone you are taking, too low, you will have symptoms of Oestrogen dominance.
Anyhoo, two weeks ago I stopped using the Estrodot and starting opening up the Utrogestan capsule and rubbing it into my skin, changing area each night. I have had no flushes which I get within two/three days of stopping oestrogen. I don't feel as tired, but that may be that no oestrogen means I'm less hypo thyroid. I haven't lost weight, but neither have I put anymore on. Sleep is a bit erratic, one night ok the next not so good, but again I think that has to do with my Graves and being less hypo (I was sleeping every night like a stone, 10/12 hours, but not feeling the least refreshed in the morning)
So, I will try this for minimum 3 months unless I get any weird side effects.
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Will be interesting to see how you get on! Please keep posting.
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How do you know that the progesterone is being absorbed through your skin?
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Thats what I was wondering Suzy...have you a uterus or not? With the cream, if you do have a uterus, do you get regular bleeds and have checks to see what the lining is looking like?
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Although Utrogestan can be absorbed vaginally, as the tissues are obviously designed for this, I'd be worried that it could be absorbed through 'ordinary ' skin. It was equally possible that the headaches were because of too little oestrogen- I get one when I try to reduce my Oestrogel.
I think you need to be careful. For a start, how are you going to access Utrogestan in the amount you will need without a prescription? Or maybe you have been given 3 months' worth?
I wouldn't want to use any type of hormones without medical input because you really don't know what they might do - good or bad!
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This is what it says on this site about progesterone cream - which you will be replicating by rubbing in utrogestan:
PROGESTERONE CREAM "Natural" progesterone cream is available on private prescription in varying strengths. Studies have shown inconsistent results on effect on menopausal symptoms. Claims for a protective effect on bones have not been confirmed. Women who take systemic estrogen for menopausal symptoms must also take progestogen to protect the womb lining from being stimulated by the estrogen. Progesterone cream is not suitable for giving protection to the womb lining and should not be relied on for this purpose..
The theory of oestrogen dominance has been knocking around for ages and there are, as far as I know no trials or evidence to support this idea.
The bottom line is - your oestrogen levels drop to their lowest levels about 2 years following your last period and as well as early symptoms ( such as flushes sweats etc) there are later consequences of prolonged oestrogen deprivation that progesterone - as a different hormone- cannot treat. These later consequences include vaginal atrophy, and bladder problems ( probably the most noticeable) and potential problems with bones ( oesteoporosis) as well as heart and circulation.
Unfortunately there is no way of distinguishing between the reliable scientifically tested information, and theories where products are sold. You will find that most such sites are American where there is a different healthcare system and a huge number of independent practitioners recommending and offering all sorts!
My view is - if progesterone only HRT was recommended during and after menopause - then it would be available on the NHS, and there would be scientific information and trials demonstrating its efficacy.
There is an interaction between thyroid and estrogen metabolism I understand - but that doesn't alter the facts about oestrogen deprivation.
Hurdity x
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I agree 100% with what Hurdity posted.
Another comment that may be useful- my gynae has written something about natural progesterone and says that although it is available in cream or gel form in some countries, the dose needed is unacceptably large for application through the skin and would not be absorbed in the right level needed for uterine protection. (This excludes vaginal use of Utrogestan)
This suggests that the amount you would get from 100mg would not have any effect.
He adds that there are some women who feel that OTC progesterone creams relieve hot flushes but there are no scientific trials which show this.
There is another consideration and maybe others can comment: when women stop HRT ( sequi) they should end with a bleed. If you have stopped your oestrogen and not had a bleed then you may need to use the Utrogestan in the way it works to thin your uterine lining, one last time, although 6 weeks of unopposed oestrogen at a low dose it not very much.
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I do still have a uterus and bio-identical progesterone cream is widely prescribed here. To answer your question about how I know whether the progesterone is being absorbed, I am currently having blood tests every six weeks or so until we get to a regime that seems to be working, and I will have scans as required. There is actually a very recent Canadian study about the efficacy of progesterone only in reducing he symptoms of menopause - I do not know how to post a link or I would do!
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So you aren't in the UK? Ah...
But I'm still puzzled. If you are able to access bio identical progesterone cream via your drs who are giving you blood tests, why use a capsule of Utrogestan instead of working with your drs?
Are you telling that what you are doing so they can monitor what's showing up in blood tests?
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Its silverfairy who is opening utrogest capsules and rubbing it in, something I have read other women are doing.
Suzyq uses compounded natural progesterone cream that has been prescribed. It is not available over the counter in Canada as it is in America, she is also correct about studies using only progesterone for menopause symptoms.
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There appears to be 1 x 12-week study done in Canada on a very small group of women, looking at the effects of progesterone on blood clots.
Be interested to see links to any other research.
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140115172832.htm
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yes- that's it :)
There 's a lot of what would be considered doubtful or outdated information there - such as the idea that fall in breast cancer cases relates to lower uptake of HRT- this has been disputed by the recent reviews which gave other more plausible reasons which showed it was not a true correlation- the main point of which was that women in the WHI study may well have already had breast cancer ( undiagnosed) before they took HRT and although it may have 'fed it', it hadn't caused it.
There is nothing in that study which shows scientifically that progesterone relieves symptoms. It was a study to monitor the effect on blood vessels and was 12 weeks' long. If they applied the same timescale to oestrogen then they'd probably come up with the same results.
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Well done! You know how to link things - I can't figure it out!
As I see it, different approaches work for different people! We all agree there is no single way with hrt that works for everyone. My cream supplies 120mg of progesterone every day, split into two doses of 1ml. Blood tests show that I am absorbing this at least as well as I was doing with vaginal use of ultrogestan as my levels have increased. I used progesterone only (again the cream) for a long time and it relieved my symptoms. I agree it may not be useful if you have va etc, but in terms of palpitations, anxiety and flushes, it did work. If I don't use everyday my symptoms are bad even with estrogen and I got worse the higher my estrogen went! Others don't get on with progesterone - I understand that - but I, and others, do. Over time you find out what works best for you and I think that's the most sensible approach for all of us.
Good discussion though - it's always good to explore different options.
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http://www.medpagetoday.com/Endocrinology/GeneralEndocrinology/43123
Another positive for progesterone??
In reading the article linked by solver lady it refers to an earlier study by the same author which showed that progesterone significantly reduced the intensity and frequency of night sweats and hot flashes ....
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Do you get a monthly withdrawal bleed on this Suzy or are you using in continuously? Sorry if I didnt read the whole post..
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I was originally using for only 12 days and got a monthly bleed but didn't feel great! My specialist switched me to continuous use as he felt, for me, the rise then fall in progesterone levels was making me feel poorly and that I would do better with steady levels? I was a bit sceptical but it's been nearly 4 weeks and I feel pretty good! As I use every day I should not get a monthly bleed but have been having spotting, which it am hoping will stop!!
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More about progesterone
http://www.synapse-trial.com/why-progesterone/
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/health/study-tests-if-progesterone-can-save-lives-after-brain-injury.html?_r=0
http://news.emory.edu/stories/2013/04/hspub_healing_hormone/campus.html
Dr John Lee was right he always maintained progesterone a multiple hormone helped you think better.
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Not sure how it could be outdated
Date:
January 15, 2014
Source:
University of British Columbia
Summary:
Treatment with progesterone, a naturally occurring hormone that has been shown to alleviate severe hot flashes and night sweats in post-menopausal women, poses little or no cardiovascular risk, according to a new study.
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Just to clarify re the confusion (if any!):
The study you are referring to silverlady was not designed to demonstrate the efficacy of progesterone in relieving hot flushes, but looking at its cardiovascular effect. The study was based on the premise that progesterone does do this ( ie alleviate flushes etc) as Sarah2 mentioned.
I've looked at the article and have found another study to which the 2014 one refers, which is one (from 2012) that seems to demonstrate the efficacy of the hormone in this regard:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22453200
However a study like this cannot be taken in isolation because the effects are subjective (even though it was a placebo controlled trial) so much larger sample sizes (ie numbers of women) are needed. This is why studies on this are conflicting. Also if you notice the women were given 300mg of oral progesterone which is a huge amount - considering some women get side effects from the licensed dose of 200 mg!
Personally to be effective (ie the results), I feel there needs to be a very large placebo controlled study - with women given a placebo, progesterone only, and oestrogen and progesterone only - and separate study for women who have had hysterectomies so that oestrogen only can be compared!!! This is unlikely to happen for sure.
Having said that - many of us are not in the HRT game purely for symptom control - although that's how we started out - but for the long-term health benefits that oestrogen replacement gives (or rather to alleviate the adverse effects of prolonged oestrogen deprivation).
Hurdity x
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Surely what is important here is what works for each of us and not have to prove it all the time. If progesterone cream regimes works for some or anything else for that matter why can it not be accepted without all the controversy no wonder some members don't want to post about their success with progesterone.
The mantra on MM is always that we are all different and what works for one may not work for another we should not have to back it up constantly with science, it gets tedious.
Suzyq
I am really glad you have found something that works for you and you have posted about it.
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Does this mean that my oestrogen is unnecessary and I should only use progesterone (which is the part that makes me feel horrible but I know that it is the combined HRT which has more risks).
Taz x
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It's not the study that is outdated- I didn't say that. It's the information right at the end of the link which refers to the negative aspects of combined HRT and oestrogen especially. I thought everyone had moved on from that now as those stats had been re-evaluated and- for example- there has been a review which shows that the fall in breast cancer has nothing to do with reduction in HRT use.
The other point is that progesterone has not been linked to cardiovascular issues, which is what the study was investigating. The latest research shows a possible link between synthetic progestogens and breast cancer in combined therapy.
Re. oestrogen long term for osteoporosis this is incorrect too- certainly in the UK- because it is still used long term for women who cannot tolerate other treatments for osteoporosis.
The demise of estrogen: Though doctors still prescribe short-term estrogen for women with severe night sweats and hot flashes, it's not considered safe as a long-term prevention against osteoporosis or any other conditions of aging. Since estrogen use began to decline, breast cancer rates have started to fall; health statisticians believe the two trends are linked.
I'm sorry if this was not clear in my first post when I referred to out of date information.
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I have a box of progesterone cream, in comes in small sachets, 48 of them, I cut a slit in one and use the tiniest amount of the cream rubbed into a thin area of skin daily, the box lasts a very long time and is kept fresh because of the individual sachets.
I don't use it for symptoms personally, both men and women need progesterone for health.
http://healthyjen.hubpages.com/hub/fight-estrogen-dominance
Sorry I am using a link to back up what I have just said, but anyone can google this.
It all depends on what your symptoms are, your expectations, or circumstances (hyst or not) what works for you. P
I use both hormones very sparingly, and leaning toward estriol and natural progesterone cream.
The main point I am trying to put over is that any woman who posts with something that she finds works for her should be encouraged and not be made to feel that that just because it not viewed as mainstream it is not valid.
Taz after you have had your hyst you will be able to use the estrogen of your choice with or without progesterone.
Its about choices and what will work for you and make you feel well!
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All I can say is, that when I took the other HRT regimes, and then the Utrogestan and Estrodot (the latter chosen because they are both bio identical) my hot flushes and night sweats went within days but after 3 months I began to get really bad headaches daily.
As soon as I stopped this time my flushes etc came back within days and headaches went after 13 days - exactly the same with all of them. I have put on weight all through my different HRT's yet diet and daily activity stayed the same.
Since dropping the Estrodot, April 20th (I also keep a symptom diary for Graves and Meno, as symptoms arte very similar, and I started both at the same time - maybe there's a clue there!) I have had no flushes only a slight heat intolerance but that is definately a Graves symptom which means I am now less hypo. I have no headaches although they may appear after a couple more months. I have lost a kilo but until I lose another I wont put it down to the Prog only regime.
One thing I did notice (although it may have been a one off) I took the Utrogestan orally last night and slept better, so maybe I am not after all absorbing enough dermally? I may alternate, I'm so rock and roll sometimes!! 8)
I have a very open mind and I do research things now, especially since being diagnosed with Graves disease.
I do not expect anyone to blindly follow what I am doing. Everyone needs to research as much as possible, but take most you read with a pinch of salt!
I'm afraid I do not agree, though, with the opinion that if prog only HRT was any good we would be prescribed it. If you have any disease or disorder like Graves, that doctors and even specialists really know so little about and treat so illogically you would know why I say that!
Also I have taken out of the equation any benefits(?) that oestrogen may have. Even that, personally, I dont think has been researched properly.
This is the link to the website. The difference with this one is that the lady not only sells the product, she answers questions, in my opinion knowledgeably, on all aspects of progesterone.
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/menopause.html#axzz2zMYTj2YH
If you look on the top left and click on 'forums' you will get to a list of questions on different subjects (not quite a forum like this)
I will keep you posted :)
PS I am about 3 years in to meno and still have all my bits, although obviously redundant now!
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Well said Silverfairy :)
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Thank you for the link Silverfairy, I already subscribe the their newsletter :)
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This is obviously a controversial topic but it is absurd to deny the importance of the role of science, and the benefits of oestrogen!
I agree there is a huge amount we don't know but we wouldn't be discussing any of this if it wasn't for science (the info on this site wouldn't be here) - and I know I've said this before but it is crucial to distinguish between the experience of one individual and the results of trials involving populations or groups of individuals.
You cannot predict how you will react to a given treatment based on one person's account, nor even from results of trials.
The former is very interesting - I enjoy reading about what women have tried and find works for them. But you can never say, that if it works, it was because of what they took, partly because you don't know how they would have reacted had they not taken the substance. Also because - as shown by trials, in many cases placebos (where subjects don't know whether they are taking the treatment or a pill/cream with nothing in it) work very well too.
Many of us on here actually find science far from tedious - but very interesting! I freely admit I am one of them (in case no-one had guessed!!!).
Most of us would like to take an informed view of treatments and not just take everyone's suggestions and spend a lot of time and money doing experiments on ourselves to see if it works for us too. So - the individual women's experiences are interesting, and the science tells us what works or not for larger numbers of women, and crucially whether it is safe or not.
The trick is to know whether what you are reading has been validated or is outdated or not - because a lot of what is on the internet is tosh! We have a job on our hands to decipher it all. Some of us find it easier to do this than others and share what we've found.
Oestrogen is essential to how our body functions and the deficiencies are well documented. Progesterone is too (essential) but as far as I understand from leading authorities in the field, does not lead to serious health conditions post-menopause if it is not replaced in its own right.
Hurdity x
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I don't think anyone is meaning to be intentionally negative or unkind to someone who has found something she thinks works- I'm not!
But there are lots of people who read the forum as 'lurkers' and it's important to show both sides to discussions- which is only fair comment!
There are several references on the web to how progesterone cream made from yams and sold by mail order cannot be converted into the type of progesterone which is in a pharmaceutical product. If it was and IF it worked, it could be dangerous because people would be self-administering, the dose would not be measurable or uniform throughout the cream, and progesterone is also linked in some studies to blood clots ( see the info in the packs of Utrogestan, Northisterone, etc.)
I can't quite understand why some manufacturers are selling estriol and progesterone- regardless of the ingredients (I've checked these on one site) by mail order? Either they are not the 'real thing' as found in prescription-only products, or they are - in which case it's highly dangerous for anyone to self-medicate with powerful hormones.
The instructions for estriol from one such company suggest rubbing it on the chest!!! Anyone using prescribed oestrogen gel knows this is not the way to use it and potentially dangerous.
Similarly, they suggest using the progesterone cream as we would use prescription progesterone- for several days of a cycle to bring on a bleed. This is highly unethical because again- if it really worked it could be dangerous and if it didn't work it's mis-selling.
This is NOT the same as someone using a product given by their dr and being monitored, which is what suzyq is doing.
Much of what is on the web is written by journalists or even minor celebrities, and of course the manufacturers of the products, who have done a tiny bit of research and cobbled together a piece which ends up as a summary- and not always an accurate summary- of the research. Many of these health sites do this- I know, as I know people in the business who write them!
Not everyone who reads these sites does their own thorough research and they are vulnerable to the advertising of products.
The danger is not that people are using complementary treatments - of which there are some that are excellent- but that they are believing 'pseudo science' some of the time, which could cause them harm, or other people reading of their experiences who try the same thing.
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Thank you hurdity and Sarah and the others for the interesting debate. I was appalled to see there are no UK national guidelines yet. It's a neglected area, and everything's hit and miss. Even the doctors mostly use guesswork. The latest advice I had was that the current treatment I was using probably no longer suited me, which is fair enough, but doesn't tell me why? I would welcome some proper trials in this subject.
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I will continue using progesterone cream(not wild yam cream it contains progesterone USP, I use a very very small amount of estrogen too) and supplements , because it works for me.
I have no side effects and I feel well, I am ten years post menopause and my doctor tells me to continue with what I am doing because it is working. That is good enough for me.
I pride myself on knowing what is "tosh" or not. I read read read, also paying out for rather expensive Text books too, they are available on amazon.
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Silverlady, were you ever on a combined HRT? If so, what side effects, if any, did you have, that you don't get on progesterone on its own?
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I was on it before my hyst, hated it and was not on it for long, my problem was too much estrogen, hence the hyst for a very large fibroid that two surgeons opinions said would not shrink with menopause, I was 52.
After my hyst I used a very low dose estrogen patch, when I was 56 I stopped taking it for two years., it cause weight gain and enlarged breasts, I lost weight and had no symptoms and felt fine, to be honestly I only started taking it again because of the health benefits, since then I have learned there is an awful lot more to a womans health then taking estrogen, which can be friend and foe.
After my breast reduction (caused by too much estrogen) I wanted nothing that would cause my beasts to grow, I gradually reduced my estrogen to half and stated using progesterone cream, that's where I am now. I have talked much about estrogen on MM but not too much that I was using progesterone cream as well ( along with supplements which I think are most important also don't drink or smoke) as it was always met with it being discredited.
I don't have VA, never suffered from that, no health problems, excepts some allergies, have had nine blood tests this year all coming back normal, anything else is normal aging that men and women can have.
This my story, every woman's is different.
Forgot to say my DR knows I use progesterone cream she is fine with it.
It this sort of information that worries me
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12225625, as I have posted on the "Other Health Issues"
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Thank you Silverlady, I very much appreciate you sharing that :)
My symptoms pre HRT were hot flushes, mood swings and dry lady bits :) The first two went with the combined HRT but I still don't have them with the progesterone only (although admittedly have only been on the latter 10 days)
I was given Gynest and Ovestin for the dryness but they do not seem to have solved the problem as I should only have to apply it 2 x weekly by now, but still need it daily.
The lady on the website says that the progesterone should deal with the dryness, maybe it needs more time? Or do I ask the GP to prescribe Utrogestan vag capsules? Would that deal with all my symptoms?
Hmmm ever more questions!!
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I don't think there is any evidence that progesterone helps vaginal dryness. The receptors in the vaginal lining/cells which are responsible for lubrication and vaginal health are there for oestrogen uptake.
You may need to use systemic HRT as well as localised HRT to feel the full benefit vaginally, as some of us do.
Progesterone, taken as the mini Pill for instance, thickens cervical mucus, can increase body temperature ( as it does after ovulation) and can alter the acidity of the vagina making it more susceptible to thrush - none of which most meno women need!!
Have you tried using the creams for maybe 4 weeks, daily, then 2 x a week?
The website you mention is a site which sells a product. Ask yourself if the answers to any questions will, by and large, promote the products they sell. There are lots of website on health which are 'dressed up' as offering medical advice, but they are really no more than a shop window for products they sell, or gain income from, by advertising products for other companies.
If you have a look at the actual amount of progesterone in those products it is a tiny amount. They promote it as 'over the counter' HRT. It's irresponsible of them to suggest it can bring on a bleed. Do they get away with it because they aim it at women in the peri-menopause who are probably having a period anyway- regardless of whether they use that pot of cream!
Sorry- bit of a rant, but just feel quite strongly about products that are not all they seem but vulnerable women fall for the advertising rather than seeing a gynaecologist.
But maybe talk to your dr?
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I get my progesterone from amazon which has 614 reviews
Each tube contains 60 grams (2 oz) of cream and 2,000mg progesterone
Natpro cream has a concentration of 3.33% progesterone or 33.33 milligrams per gram.
Your body before menopause, and after ovulation would have made 20-30 mgs a day until menstruation.
Serenity cream has over 5.000) likes, that should tell you something.
Silverfairy You say that your dryness did not go with Combined HRT ( but took care of hot flushes and mood swings) nor with with Gynest and Ovestin.
Maybe asking your Dr for vagifem along with the progesterone of your choice may solve the dryness problem.
When you say "Graves" this means that you have an auto immune disease of the thyroid, there is an interaction between the thyroid and estrogen which stimulates the immune system, progesterone tends to dampen down the immune system which might be why you get on better with it. Another example of estrogen and the immune system is that estrogen can make asthma and allergies worse where as progesterone can help.
Progesterone has to have this effect in pregnancy as an immune suppressant so that the body does not see the foetus as a foreign body and reject it.
I don't know what your other health problems are so cannot comment on them, but hope this maybe of use.
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2000mgs is the same as 200mgs x 10 days of progesterone as is Utrogestan.
Just for comparison, that is less than the amount women using it as part of HRT would use in one month ( unless deviating from the prescribed amount.)
Regardless of how or why you use it, I think it is unethical for the company to make unfounded statements- such as it helps with osteoporosis when the NOS has studied this in depth and says not.
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I note that Vagifem contains a different type of oestrogen to the other two, it may make a difference? (Estriol as opposed to Estradiol)
Apparently, Oestrogen binds with something (<- scientific term!) which will cause you to become more hypo if you have under active problems. Graves makes you over active, so I may now need to up my anti thyroid medication to make sure I dont go too far the other way. That wont be a problem, my Endo is currently humouring me as I am adamant I am not having my thyroid removed or nuked! as I will still suffer from Graves.
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silverfairy they do say vagifem (estrodiol) is confined to the vaginal area, but some say it does goes systemic. I do see your quandary as far as estrogen is concerned.
Have you tried alternative methods to treat vaginal dryness, many women cannot use hormones for this problem due to medical reasons or even because don't want to.
You might get some ideas from this forum http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,140.0.html
Vitamin E and the omega oils moisturise the body from within even vitamin E vaginal suppositories may help.
Hope you can find something that helps, it might need a many pronged approach, using estrogen will always be a balancing act for you, but it does look as if your Endo is backing you.
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http://womeninbalance.org/resources-research/progesterone-bone-health/
I will continue using my progesterone cream with my small amount of estrogen (partial hyst) along with my supplements for bone health.
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Silver Fairy
You asked about the different types of oestrogen in the vaginal preparations.
As you noted Vagifem contains Estradiol and the others Estriol. Research shows that they have the same effect ie plump up the vaginal walls (and bladder area) to help alleviate VA. I think it's a matter of preference and what works for you as well as what appeals to you.
If you need a higher dose it's probably easier to double up with the Vagifem as the (vaginal) tablets are very small. I particularly like the Orthgynest pessaries (estriol) - but these are being discontinued so pointless me recommending them! They have the effect of lubrciating the area as well as plumping up the tissues. Gynest cream and Ovestin need an applicator to use which I would find a bit of a faff so not looking forward to when I can't get the pessaries... the estriol types tend to be a bit more leaky, but that's their advantage ( ie re lubrication).
Hurdity x
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It this sort of information that worries me
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12225625, as I have posted on the "Other Health Issues"
As far as this is concerned - this is new to me but I did find a more up to date review of the literature which does not appear to show a clear association with oestrogen levels and osteoarthritis, which members may like to read also.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19608726
Hurdity x
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I found these too
http://www.arthrolink.com/en/osteoarthritis-folders/all-folders/osteoarthritis-and-women
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/10/35
There were a few other links I saved quite a while ago that first started me thinking about osteoporosis and arthritis and estrogens connection.
Of cause I can't find them now.
Osteoporosis is mineral deficiency and osteoarthritis, especially Heberden's nodes, spurs etc. is over mineralisation.
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Most people have some slight OA in older age through wear and tear. I don't think it's as simple as OA is over-mineralisation. eg hip replacements are due to wear and tear on a ball and socket joint, not high bone density.
The 2nd link above says this- OA is a disease of the joints.
There are millions of women with osteoporosis and it's a killer in old age- it kills more women than breast cancer, through complications that arise from broken hips in old age - ie pneumonia. Osteoarthritis is potentially very painful but it's not a killer in the same way.
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This got me thinking as my dad suffered dreadfully with osteo and then rheumatoid arthritis. I had a search around and found this study - so maybe osteo can be a killer too http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d1165
Taz x :-\
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I don't want to get involved in any controversy, but I will just comment on my experiences with progesterone. Everyone is different, so my experiences are not meant to be treated as any kind of “proof†of anything.
When I first began getting meno symptoms, I was fearful of “HRT†because of all the negative things people were saying about it. I always told myself that there was no way in hell I would ever use it. Famous last words.....
Around this time I'd seen an episode of Oprah where she, and Suzanne Somers, were extolling the virtues of compounded bioidenticals. Being an American show, they were pretty much saying that the only way of getting bioidenticals was to have them compounded, and made no mention at all of the fact that "bioidenticals" are in fact FDA approved and available "off the shelf".
Being completely ignorant of anything to do with hormone treatments, I believed them. In America, and to a slightly lesser extent in Australia where I live, bioidentical hormones equals compounded hormones, and vice versa. Most doctors in Australia look at you strangely when you ask about “bioidenticalsâ€, even when you are talking about estradiol and progesterone, because they aren't categorised as being anything more than hormone treatments. The only doctors who bother with the term are the ones who prescribe the compounded hormones. This is why I am always very concerned when I see references to “bioidenticals†without further explanation, because in different countries it can mean different things.
Anyway, a friend of mine was seeing a doctor who prescribed compounded hormones, so I made an appointment to see him. The only thing he prescribed for me was compounded progesterone cream. Immediately I felt wonderful, and thought I'd found the Holy Grail. That lasted for exactly two months. Then my symptoms got much much worse. When I went back to that doctor, and asked him about estrogen, he basically told me there was nothing wrong with what he'd prescribed (prog), and that all my menopause problems were psychological. Now I'm not saying that all doctors who prescribe compounded hormones or progesterone only treatments are arrogant whackos, but that guy certainly was.
Anyway, I went to another GP, who prescribed a proper HRT treatment (Livial from memory) and everything was wonderful again. I've had a lot of ups and downs since then, but nothing that has really been related to the type of HRT treatment I was on.
However, recently I tried using Utrogestan as a continuous method, and pretty much exactly the same thing happened. I felt fantastic at first, but after about 6 weeks, everything went really bad. Basically what happens is that my body seems to like the prog initially, but then gets overloaded with it and reacts badly. So for me continuous progesterone of any kind is a big no-no. I know for me I need estradiol, and progesterone is just a necessary evil.
It seems so many women have a huge variation in how they react to progesterone. Some get on quite well with it, especially Utrogestan, and find it sedating. Others find it revs them up or gives them other side effects. My body doesn't seem to be able to make up its mind. Sometimes it likes it, other times not. It's just a crap shoot each time I use it. I've just recently finished 12 days of Utrogestan, and had insomnia the whole time, and I'm still waiting for things to get back to normal even though it's now 3 days since I stopped it.
So I guess what I'm saying is that if anyone has only started using a progesterone only treatment, make sure you are on it for at least a few months before you know whether it is right for you, because early signs can be very positive, but they can soon change once your progesterone levels get too high. If you've been using it for a while and it's working, then that's great.
However, the OTC progesterone cream industry has become a mega-million dollar industry, and the information provided by these manufacturers are sketchy at best, and there is certainly rarely any cautionary information provided on their websites. There is a lot of concern over women who use these progesterone creams, because most of them use them without medical supervision, and are self-medicating without having anyone check their hormone levels.
Through another forum that I'm on, I come across this problem a lot, and the effects of unsupervised progesterone use is wide-spread and very scary in its ramifications.
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That's all very interesting Dana.
All I'd like to add is that the term 'bioidentical' has become a little over used perhaps and can cause confusion as in some people's minds it's synonymous with 'compounded' ( which is totally different and has been criticised heavily by some UK meno specialists- Panay in a Daily Mail article) - as you have found!
I've always been on 'bioidentical' estrogen ( as have many women here) but it was never 'sold' to me as that by my gynae and I didn't even know the term until I started reading about compounded HRT and then twigged what it was all about!
Evidently 300mgs Utrogestan is getting near the level that women would have in pregnancy which is presumably why some women feel great on it- it's relaxing and a sedative- but for others it mimics PMS symptoms.
It's ironic that on the one hand the FDA in the US has some of the strictest rules around re. drugs, food, additives and supplements yet there is as you say a million dollar industry selling hormones in an unregulated way- compared with the way they regard HRT after the WHI study!
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Im like you Dana, too high a Utrogestan dosage, turns me into a total insomiac and makes me feel like I have had way too much caffeine, not a nice type of wired up feeling at all...