Menopause Matters Forum
General Discussion => This 'n' That => Topic started by: CLKD on March 03, 2014, 03:09:26 PM
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:'( Is this the start of the Big One! Putin never seems to have any emotion on his face, I think during the recent Olympics he smiled briefly once and then sort of remembered that he keeps a straight face …….. I suppose England was like this in the Wars of the Roses etc..
Do we need to buy stuff ……….. will our fuel situation be compromised?
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I don't think we need to panic CLKD. They are posturing and probably rubbing their hands together knowing that the West is watching and waiting and will do precisely nothing.
The Crimea is made up over nearly 60% Russians and they do not want to be part of the Ukraine. They will be quite happy with the situation.
It's only if Putin starts to look at other bits of the country that there could be problems.
There will not be any military action as there is far to much to loose for both sides.
Don't think I will be stocking up on anything quite yet.
Honeyb
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I think we have good cause to be worried but we can't change anything so we just have to hope that it will die down. Mind you it doesn't seem so now that the ultimatum has been issued. Wish we didn't rely on them so much for our gas supplies!
Taz x
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How childish to issue ultimatum to Russia >:( :cuss: it's like little boys in the Playground! We rely far too much on them for our gas etc. ……….. also, with the Paraolympics in Sochi soon :-\
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Russia has issued the ultimatum CLKD!
Taz x
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my heart goes out to the 40% who aren't Russian. I can see another Georgia invasion scenario. However the Russian stock market has nosedived, which may prevent too drastic action.
Personally, to make a dodgy joke, I'd start putting oestrogen into Vlad's tea. Way too much testosterone.
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;D oldsheep!
Seriously, though, it's unfortunate that Russia has never gone in for democracy. They've always been very two-tiered, a very unequal society. Let's hope it all quietens down. If Vlad can sing in public, he must have some heart!
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Didn't hear him singing, only heard the piano bit.
Very stiff & regimented, no wrong notes though.......
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Obama followed by UK issued warnings followed by the UN but Russia can veto anything suggested :'( ….
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Russia is not the power it once was an relies heavily on America and the west for trade. Ok they may control some gas supplies but they need us far more than we need them.
I don't think there will be any military action at all and certainly nothing nuclear. Too much to loose on both sides.
Honeyb
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Men don't think about what will be lost …….. it's all about their moment of Fame in front of the rest of the World. We know far more about War, it's horrors and consequences - watching BBC1 right now about Rupert Brooke ……. and parts of main-land Europe were affected by Russia reducing the supply of gas 2 years ago in the middle of Winter so don't believe that we can't be cut off! I don't know that Russia needs the West ………. there are plenty in the Middle East who will step in ………. it's too close for comfort from where I'm sitting :-\
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Try not to worry too much. Don't think we will be affected that much at all. They really do need the trade from the west and America so although they may posture a lot they are not daft.
Honeyb
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Men don't think about what will be lost …….
We know far more about War, it's horrors and consequences
Know what you mean about the horrors of war CLKD but I don't think the Russians have forgotten the siege of Stalingrad. Radio 4 did a serialisation of Life and Fate by Vassily Grossman a few years ago. It seemed truly awful, we aren't the only ones to know the horrors of war.
Think you are right about the men bit though.
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History isn't relevant in the heat of the moment ……….. that was a different generation after all. What's written isn't the same as what is seen …..
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Not being awkward CLKD, but how is it different, wasn't Rupert Brooke writing?
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Because not many of those who will fight these days have listened to history :-\ ………. I can read that poem without feeling much at all ……….. there is also testosterone and pride to be taken into account ………..
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Which poem?
Taz x
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I think we have to wait & see how things pan out.
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apparently all children are taught it in school - off to GOOGLE
written a few weeks before he died, of a mosquito bite ........
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The Soldier
If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.
And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.
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Thanks CLKD. Not sure it is still part of the curriculum nowadays. He was a very complex character but certainly had a way with words.
Taz x
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It may not be part of the Curriculum but many Schools are teaching it. I was watching a programme last night but can't remember which Authority were adding it to their lessons.
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What I meant was not "all children" are taught it.
Taz x
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In primary school up here it's much more likely to be Burns and nothing else.
Honeyb
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Jacobite's too HB. Though at primary I used to get very confused about the word defeated. ::)
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defeated is what we aren't ;)
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It is a lovely poem CLKD.
In Wales I suspect that the children aren't taught it either.
Even if their Grandfathers are named on the cenotaph memorials which are in the local towns.
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It's a beautiful and poignant poem. I did it at school (in SA). However I do hope it's not being taught as nationalistic or patriotic? But then I hope (in vain no doubt) for the dreadful horrors of WW1 to be properly and soberly commemorated this year, not some Great War glorification - all brass and medals, and no horror, gas, maiming, death mentioned.
I hope kids are being taught that war is a truly terrible thing. Hope they also teach Wilfred Owen
http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/collections/item/3303
There are 40% or so Crimeans who aren't Russian apparently. I can't see any serious action being taken against Russia unless they do something crazy, particularly by the EU. The Ukrainians so far haven't made the mistake the Georgians made, when they fired tank shells at Russian troops, so for now it's just sable rattling and intimidation by Putin. Russia does too much trade with Germany, France and there's a massive dependence on their gas - and their money coming into London's financial sector.
I can see Crimea being effectively annexed though. Must read up more on the history of the area.
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There is a lot of talk about WW1 on local TV. Going into Schools, asking kids to talk to those who have memories .......... I think by keep talking about it people will think it's OK to go to War :-\ and there are few who realise exactly what mud and guts looks like ........ :'(
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I think it's so very important for them to talk to children about the two world wars. It's history and we need to remember what these men and women sacrificed for us.
By not telling them what exactly would we achieve.
I don't think any of the men who have led us into war have been particularly influenced by previous ones.
We need to honour our dead and by telling our children what happened does exactly that.
Would you ban Rememberance Sunday CLKD. If I remember you enjoyed watching it on TV last year and spoke about it on here.
Honeyb
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I don't think any of "those who have memories .........." would say it was good or OK to go to war. It is right that they are shown respect for what they went through.
The only people who think it's good or OK to go to war are the pompous arrogant idiots in governments who start the wars in the first place. Secure in the knowledge it's not them in the firing line.
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My DIL is Russian speaking Ukrainian...she speaks Russian as does all of her family, as that was the language only allowed in school under the old regime (which looks like it may return if they get no help) BUT she is Ukrainian...she says she doesn't need Putin to save her or her family from anyone. He keeps going on about saving/protecting Russian speakers...erm that's most of the Ukraine!!
Her grandma lives just outside Crimea...Russians have been in her town last couple of days trying to convert them...they shouldn't be in Crimea or eastern Ukraine...its not Russia....if he gets away with this he will move into the rest of Ukraine,....10 yrs time when they are about to cross the channel we may not worry so much then about how much its costing to cook the Sunday roast with our more expensive non Russian gas.
Hitler had the same delusions...I can rule the world....
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:thankyou: Christine ..... I agree. Hitler rattled his sabres :'( and the World stood back or tried appeasement ....... is your son there too?
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Hi
No they are both here at the moment (blessing)...she is beside herself for her family & her people.
I know we would feel the bite of doing without the gas initially, but a stand needs to be made...its scary of how tyranny could spread. A lot of people now don't think that someone of Hitler's ilk could be real as it was all so long ago...its all history in books. But he was real, very, very real & Putin is so much the same...the way he was smirking on tv was very unsettling I think.
Its the reason he keeps giving that he is protecting Russian speakers!!! they all mostly speak Russian in Ukraine, but don't say they are Russian. Before the 'iron curtain' came up Ukraine was under Russian rule, so Russian was all they were allowed to speak.
UN & EU etc are all so concerned about the effect on the economy...it could all get so much worse if its left to carry on, not just for Ukraine but for all of us.
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Great posts Christine. It really helps to get an insight from someone who is close to it.
It has really made me sit back and see it from a different angle.
I hope your DILs family remain safe and that the threat they are under does not take a turn for the worse.
Honeyb
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Hi HB
Its just scary that someone in this day & age thinks they can just trample over the rest of us, not just Ukraine but anyone he fancies....he wants to establish the old empire, which is bad news for the world as a whole....and if he buddies up with China...game over in my opinion.
Yes, I am close to it with this one, but apart from that none of us should be dictated to ever. After all the losses in the wars over the years, not just WW1 & WW2 it needs to stop.
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Christine the situation there really is, potentially horrible. Many sympathies to your son's in laws.
However what do you think should be done?
Where I'me coming from is I know young blokes who are in the army. They would be happy to go and fight anywhere they are needed, they've been in Afghanistan and felt it was the right thing to do. Equally they've seen their mates killed by their "Afghan allies"
I'me not sure it's worth it. Are you happy for your son to go and fight?
None of it is easy.
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This situation is building some momentum. Putin is a dangerous man, I fear. They say the Crimeans want to be with Russia. Wonder what pressure they were put under.
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I think the Crimean people want to remain there. They want Russians out of their land space. Putin is using the 'russian speaking' idea as an excuse ……...
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very interesting Christine. There were some interviews on R4 this morning with younger Crimean residents, who all seemed to want to be part of the Ukraine. Is there an age dynamic in the Putin support?
The 'myth' of Crimea is that Khrushchev gave the Crimea away to Ukraine when he was drunk...vodka politics! This is a brief summary http://www.soviethistory.org/index.php?page=subject&SubjectID=1954crimea&Year=1954
I'm concerned about the power that both Russia and China have over us - that we have allowed to happen. Sleep walking into it. The old Cold War spooks and historians must be delighted that their skills aren't redundant after all I suppose. Putin is arguing that what he's proposing is what the intl community backed with Kosovo.
His referendum is really why I've always deeply mistrusted referenda of any description. They are never decided on pure facts and are always swayed by emotion and blatant misinformation (I did a whole term on referenda when I studied politics at Uni in the dinosaur era)
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I can't understand where Kosovo comes into it all. That's in the past. Not relevant >:(
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"Those who are unaware of history are destined to repeat it."
"It is said that history repeats itself, but we are only doomed to relive our past if we fail to learn from it."
We need to be aware of the past.
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I think we are aware. But Putin has sited that Kosovo is one of his reasons for his actions ..........
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But CLKD, you said that was in the past and not relevant :-\
You have me confused again.
Honeyb
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Kosovo is being quoted by Putin - but it's an excuse to justify his methods >:( .........
Sadly the Great War was supposed to be the one that ended all Wars :'(
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I am still confused. You don't want war history taught in schools and the past is irrelevant.
But.....
My mind is spinning trying to figure things out
Honeyb
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Hi Limpy...my son wont fight in Ukraine, he is British, his wife is Ukrainian. her family are over there.
The Russians are already in eastern Ukraine...drifted well outside Crimea even though Russia says its untrue (Skype is a marvellous thing - get the facts from real people).
Crimea is part of Ukraine & should stay that way.
If say for example, some tyrant tried to invade Scotland or Wales.....its exactly the same thing. I am a Scot living in England & I would be livid!!! as we are all the UK, so nobody has the right to invade.
CKLD..Yup is using the Russian speaking thing as an excuse, my DIL & all of her family friends etc are all Russian speaking but are Ukrainian...she says nobody is threatening them EXCEPT the Russian invaders.
Long term if he isn't stopped the outlook is scary for the rest of Europe.
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Scotland is under attack.....from Alex Salmond and the SNP :-\
Honeyb
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;D ;D ;D
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Yes, I believe our supply comes partly from Russia and also from Norway so I think if sanctions are imposed ...... well...... they say we would be having power cuts on some form of rota basis ???
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I think someone in government said that only 1% of our gas comes from Russia, rest comes from places like Norway. Hopefully no power cuts in the near future.
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More than that but can't remember the figures, what Hauge said to the World on Sat. is that the UK will be sourcing our gas supplies from elsewhere - but it can take up to 7 years to instigate this change! which is what the UK should have done 20 years ago >:(
Thanks Christine!
Honeybun - at least you will get an option!
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Scotland is under attack.....from Alex Salmond and the SNP :-\
Fear not Honeyb - Gordon Brown has a plan, don't know whether it's cunning..........
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Speaking today to somebody from Hungary. They have a border with the Ukraine and get their gas from Russia (I think). They are worried about what's going to happen, they think their PM is weak and know Putin is not.
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Please explain: why if there has been a referendum, to which Crimea want to be with Russia, the remainder of the 1st World are agitating for sanctions :-\ - why didn't the 1st World have 'words' when the USSR split ?
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That confuses me too, CLKD. ???
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I think it's because it was not a proper referendum CLKD because it occurred under military intervention and also violated the Ukrainian convention.
Taz x
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I think the reason the Ukranian people want to be seen as voting for Crimea being part of Russia is that Russia has already invaded. The Ukranian military have been confined to quarters by the Russians. Don't know whether they have got out yet.
That's probably the reason why the remainder of the 1st World are agitating for sanctions.
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And the big question is where will he go next.
I have a feeling this is only the start.
Honeyb
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But people seem keen on the result ……… :-\ ……… I can't think that people would be joyful in the streets if they hadn't voted ……… I think we are on scary ground should we be interfering ?
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There is a large Russian population in Crimea but it's part of Ukraine. What right does Russia have to walk in and take over. There are many who did not vote and the way the ballot papers phrased the question did not take into account anyone that opposed the Russians.
He will now look to other parts of Ukraine that has a large Russian population.
This is what's dangerous. He will march ever onwards if he is not stopped.
Honeyb
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So why didn't the 'russians' go back when USSR split? There wasn't an upheaval at the time ……… :-\
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Perhaps it's because it's a big thing to move away from an area that you've always lived in?
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Its the reason he keeps giving that he is protecting Russian speakers!!! they all mostly speak Russian in Ukraine, but don't say they are Russian. Before the 'iron curtain' came up Ukraine was under Russian rule, so Russian was all they were allowed to speak.
UN & EU etc are all so concerned about the effect on the economy...it could all get so much worse if its left to carry on, not just for Ukraine but for all of us.
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If they keep pushing Putin with weak 'threats' then it will escalate. This is about not being able to control Russia ……. they forget that 87% of our oil and gas comes via that huge area :-\
Why not sit back and not say ought for a while - after all, we went 'into' the Falklands …………
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Yes we did but that was to protect British people being taken over by the Argentinians. It's hardly the same at all.
The west simply can't stand by and watch Russia take over parts of another country.
Honeyb
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It does seem that the people there are OK about being taken into Russia ….
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Don't see that they had much of a choice what with Russian soldiers surrounding them and the Ukrainian soldiers under lock and key.
Honeyb
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It does seem that the people there are OK about being taken into Russia ….
Does this include the Ukranian soldier/s who were shot this afternoon when the Russians stormed their headquarters?
Also, heard a non russian speaking Ukranian being interviewed, saying he and the rest of his community boycotted the vote. He couldn't understand the "result", don't think he believed it either.
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Hadn't heard that bit of news. Why would they boycott even if it wasn't seen to be 'legal', better to have voted than not because the results will be skewed ………. no one will know if someone doesn't Vote ::) it is a silent protest that will never be realised by out-siders …...
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Since found out, one Ukranian soldier was killed another wounded.
Re the not voting, it might be because they hate the Russians and really don't trust them. If you were a turkey would you vote for Christmas?
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It was not a straight yes or no question that's why there was no point in turning out to vote.
It was not a legal or ethical election.
Honeyb
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Forgot it wasn't legal.
It definitely wasn't either legal or ethical.
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These were the choices on the ballot paper
"On the ballot paper, voters were asked whether they would like Crimea to rejoin Russia.
A second question asked whether Crimea should return to its status under the 1992 constitution, which would give the region much greater autonomy.
There was no option for those who wanted the constitutional situation to remain unchanged"
Taz x
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NATO are in Lithuania - and other Baltic States - are asking for support 'in case' ……. :-\
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Read that Russia "want" Finland next :o
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Again ::)
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Seem to remember that Russia has laid claim to Finland before. Don't think Finland was too impressed then.
Think this could get nasty, Finland is now part of the EEA.
Also, NATO is now muttering about the lack of Russian withdrawal from the border with eastern Ukraine.
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NATO are good at muttering ::)