Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: lesley998 on July 12, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
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Have posted before on the subject, and tried a few suggestions from you lovely ladies on this forum. Bought some melatonin (which was not cheap) but sadly had a strange reaction (rapid heartbeats) so that's twenty quid up the swanney. Tried nytol, but get awful restless legs and am unable to settle on that.
Used to be able to sleep on a razor edge...full eight to ten hours uninterrupted, woke refreshed and never thought about it. last year has been hell. Just dont feel tired at night. Go to bed about 11pm, but lying awake until 3-am, then sleeping fitfully for a couple of hours...waking in full on sweat every half an hour and usually get up at 7am.
Been coping with it but now I am at my wits end. Had a whole bottle of wine last night out of desperation, and pattern did not change. Don't want to go down that route anyway.
Any more suggestions? GP will not give me anything, I have tried zolpidem and zopiclone in the past.
Thanks x
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My GP won't give me anything either. Got zopiclone for a week, but habit wasn't broken. Have tried nytol, kalms & various others from health shop. Been waste of money. I get up following day, shower & I'm knackered!
GP gave me amyiriptyline once. Gave me such a dry mouth during the night.
My meno consultant suggested going back to GP, but am quite reluctant. Was once told to try antihistamines. But most are non-drowsy these days.
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I know what you mean about the shower and then knackered. I feel all scratchy eyed and bleary in the mornings, like I could happily collapse in bed at about 9am, fall asleep as soon as my head hits the pillow and snore for hours. Why do I feel like that at 9 am and not 11pm? It's like my brain is all mixed up, and I guess it is. Meno is after all about crazy hormones, and hormones are what govern our sleep patterns. Then the tiredness wears off, and I get through the day, only to be sitting here again, tapping away on the ipad, wide awake listening to my hubby snoring.
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Hi Sweet Pea
You might like to have a look at the Fushi site. Organic tinctures. They have some articles on insomnia. They also sell Passionflower, Valerian and neroli tinctures among other items.
Passionflower (passiflora) is also helpful for stress and anxiety if that is a problem with you too.
I have not put the link because it takes you to a site where you can buy items.
Even if you do not buy, you may like to read about the benefits of those remedies either on the site or further on the web.
I went through a stage of sweats and waking every hour and was exhausted. It eventually contributed to fibromyalgia.
I don't know if you set an alarm clock? I stopped setting my clock and told myself I would wake in the right time. it was amazing. Instead of waking in case I had missed the alarm or slept in. I always wakened on time and felt really refreshed.
Anyway, I wish you luck finding a solution. it is horrid when it happens. I see you tried Melatonin. That is popular in States and Canada, and it is used in sleep trials here. It is a shame it did not help you.
Fx
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Thank you so much fire walker. I am off to look at the site. X
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sweat pea have you got a spare room? you said "listening to hubby snoring" this is one of the main reasons that women find it hard to sleep or
have disturbed sleep http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4341199.stm
If not have you tried a sound machine which will block out any noise and lull you to sleep, that and Firewalkers suggestions might do the trick.
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Is it the sweats waking you up Sweetpea.
I also had the "lying awake from 11" scenario but I started going to bed later and eventually settled on a pattern of going to bed around half twelve to one and I found I could then get to sleep quickly and sleep for around five hours. Off HRT night sweats wake me up but while I am taking HRT (such as at present) then I only wake a couple of times for a few minutes during the five hours. I find this seems to be what my body needs. Mind you I can't imagine being asleep for eight to ten hours.
Daytime napping is a no-no if you are trying to establish a good sleep pattern apparently - not that I've ever done that. The other thing is to get up at exactly the same time everyday - even at the weekend.
Sometimes the fact that we are fighting what the body is saying is so exhausting. Have you tried HRT for the sweats or is that something you can't tolerate? Sorry I've forgotten!
Taz x
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Tosh! If one needs to sleep in the day, sleep. I find it makes not a jot of difference. If my brain needs to catch up on zzzzz then a nap in the afternoon is what is required. I still sleep at night. If I am not going to sleep, it's becuase my brain is whirring >:( <sigh>. Or there's the dropping off to sleep for 40 mins then awake until 4.30 a.m. ::) .......... sleep heals. Babies sleep when they require sleep. But as we grow being socialbe means that we have to forgo sleep in order to conform >:(
I usually read, do NintendoDS, listen to the birds .......... make a cuppa, take it back to bed, DH snores on and on and ........
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Don't think my boss would like that CLKD ;D
It's more a need to survive than being sociable I think. If we all slept whenever we wanted our society would grind to a halt and even in the olden days we had to have some people awake to guard our castles or caves. Babies sleep but only because they have someone watching over them a lot of the time to guard them from nasty happenings.
In elderly people an afternoon nap is allowed apparently although some people do say that as long as the nap is no longer than 30 minutes it is beneficial and shouldn't affect the sleeping pattern. It's always puzzled me that as we get older and closer to death the more we sleep - the same with animals - but surely we should be buzzing around making the most of what life we still have? My mum was always energetic but my dad would quite like to study the inside of his eyelids after lunch (once he retired). My mum always said "Well you can sleep if you want to but remember we're a long time dead" :)
Taz x
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Siesta time maybe. I've tried hard not to have 40 winks, but some days I feel so exhausted that I have to give in. It's a vicious circle. I'm really tired again today, but forced myself to go for swim. That was a struggle in itself, felt like I was swimming through treacle.
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This thread has reminded me: as a child we would group with all the family at the paternal Grandparents' house - all the men would have 40 winks after C.mas Lunch >:( when we were itching to open the family presents to each other. We had already opened our sacks from Santa but being kids ::) ........ my Uncle could sleep 40 mins. dead on! then he would stretch, wake up and ask 'who's for presents then' ........ I sometimes fell asleep at work after lunch, particularly at certain times of the month, I would just 'go' :o
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sweet Pea, sorry to hear Melatonin didn't suit you, it works a treat for me although it does give me very vivid dreams.
As for insomnia, I've pretty much been there bought the t-shirt blah blah blah. I suffer badly with insomnia always have done.
Im constantly searching for something that will stop my mind racing and allow me to sleep., and stay asleep! ;D
If you find something that works, be sure to post it on here!! :)
I too find alcohol unhelpful, although I go to sleep quicker after a tipple I wake up and stay awake at silly-o'clock every single time I dabble! :o
I also find alcohol a definite downer for me these days, always doom and gloom the next morning, so tend to avoid drinking as much as I used to.
(not a raging alcoholic by the way, just drank socially ;D ;D)
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hi sweet pea.i had the same problem with sleep,after suffering anxiety,my doctor put me on amitriptyline,they help well with sleeping,but you do feel drowsy in the morning.but it wears off through the day,i suppose its better than not having any sleep,might be worth trying a small dose and see how you get on x daisie
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Hi sweet pea - sorry to hear you are not sleeping buit if it's the sweats keeping you awake then only HRT will really deal with this if you don't want to go down the sleeping pills route. I had terrible nights before I started and when I had to come off HRT for a while the bad nights were coming back.... I never considered any artificial aids like pills or supplements.
I remember you stopped HRT but I don't think you have restarted again? - but sounds like your body is crying out for it. Sorry I can't remember if there was a medical reason why you couldn't have it - if so apologies! Otherwise - probably no amount of other stuff will really work in the long term - ie don't deal with the underlying cause of not sleeping.
Definitley the full bottle of wine is probably the worst thing to do - I'm like clovie - it's lovely in helping get to sleep but always wake thirsty, need to drink and pee and restless for the rest of the night. Alway wake tired after alcohol later in the evening rather than refreshed and at worst, wine gives me a 3 day migraine....
I wonder why you don't feel tired at night? Have you tried taking more physical exercise - that is a sure way for me to sleep soundly? Nothing like physical exhaustion to give you a good healthy sleep. Art Glastonbury despite the narrow bed in the camper I slept like a log and rarely even got up in the night because we had walked miles every day and I could barely drag my feet the last mile or so back each evening! Ideally apparently not too much vigorous exercise just before you turn in as it stimulates the body too much too late.
Hope this helps
Hurdity x
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It really varies for me. For years++ I worried that if I didn't get enough sleep I would not be able to function in the day. One night I thought 'oh not sleeping again, so what' and dropped striaght off! Since DH retired I have slept the best ever: not having to worry about msising the alarms and not having to get up until my brain has woken properly. It has made a *huge* difference.
I had a sleep yesterday afternoon in the camper. Warm sunshine. Breeze drifting through. I was tired enough to sleep from mid-night and was woken at 4.30 a.m. by Jackdaws: again: but went back until 8.05 ......... if my mind is racing I can't sleep at all: I can drop off OK then wake 20 mins later >:(
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Hi ladies, sorry for late reply.
Thanks for the comments - I was on Prempak C but had to come off in March it because of new high blood pressure and visual migraines. I was only on HRT for one meno symptom - really bad joint pain - my only symptom, or so I thought. I didn't realise The Sweats and Insommnia were up ahead! For the last month or two I started having a really bad hot sweat on the hour every hour, stopping me in my tracks and waking me up at night. Not so much a flush, as a full on dripping sweat. Yuk. I don't understand the wide awake bit - I get loads of exercise during the day, running after three dogs, one husband, one son and own business...but I am quite simply not tired. Never felt anything like it, I don't yawn, I feel wide awake and lie staring into space and fidgeting watching the minutes go by on the digital clock. I have now gone into another room as the snoring was doing my head in (didn't really hear it before as was nearly always asleep before DH) I have also bought ear plugs, tried listing to 'white noise' and soothing sleep sounds....and I am still only getting about two hours a night. I feel fine...apart from a little bit of anxiety back again. I seem to always have this odd unsettled feeling, a sense that I have missed something...or forgotten something, and cannot settle to to do anything without thinking I should be doing something else! Heyho, I guess this too will pass!
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...I've decided to give the melatonin another go. I tried it a couple of weeks ages ago and had flutters and palpitations - maybe it was just coincidence and just another night of 'oh what new symptom is this, thank you menopause'. I have LBBB, so am wary of anything that sets of my arrhythmia, but I am at my wits end after three more nights of hell!
edit: cos of typing too fast and dreadful spelling as per usual...
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LBBB being :-\
Do you find that you can drop off in the chair? Then do so.
I've had 20 mins deep sleep this afternoon and feel refreshed. So if I don't get as much sleep tonight I won't be worried.
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...I've decided to give the melatonin another go. I tried it a couple of nights ages ago and had flutters and palpitations - maybe it was just coincidence and just another night of 'oh what new symptom is this, thank you menopause'. I have LBBB, so am wary of anything that sets of my arrhythmia, but I am at my wits end after three more nights of hell!
good luck with the melatonin re-trial!! :)
It works for me, as I say. I never had palpitations (luckily! I've had ectopic beats in my time so it would freak me out a bit if I did get them ) but I do have vivid dreams when I take it ;D
What dose are you trying?
I started with 5mg but found it didn't work so I now take 10mg.
When you take the melatonin, apparently you are supposed to be already in bed, chilling out, dimmed lights - that kind of thing, and I do find that works for me. It's not like a sleeping pill which you would take an hour or so beforehand.
When I take it I just drift off to sleep, its lovely, no drowsy feeling either which is a bit weird :o, just drift off nicely. And no grogginess at all the next day :)
Let us know how you get on?
What is LBBB by the way? x
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If I took 10 mgs of melatonin at night I would be off the wall the next morning and walking with lead weights :o and irritable too.
You really should only take 3mgs at the most http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/fact-sheet-melatonin
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Hi,
LBBB - Left bundle branch block - is a cardiac conduction abnormality, which can be seen on the ECG as big pointy peaks. Its caused by damage to the heart (I had a viral heart infection years ago) I have to get it checked every now and again and am prone to arrhythmia - and it is bloody scary when it happens!!
I thought I would try about a quarter to a half of the 5mg tablet, as I have read that the smaller the dose the better, and to take it with carbs (like a breadstick)?
Interested to know if you ladies take it every night ...and if it is Ok to do so.
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It is but you should remember that melatonin is a hormone not a sleeping pill.
Taking more then is needed is not a good idea. It does have an interaction with estrogen
http://www.livestrong.com/article/282334-estrogen-melatonin-levels/
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Wow...found this on pubmed
Abstract
The purpose of this clinical trial on possible effects of nocturnal melatonin administration in perimenopausal women was to find if melatonin by itself modifies levels of hormones and produces changes of any kind, independently of age (42-62 years of age) and the stage of the menstrual cycle. It is accepted that a close link exists between the pineal gland, melatonin , and human reproduction and that a relationship exists between adenohypophyseal and steroid hormones and melatonin during the ovarian cycle, perimenopause, and menopause. Subjects took a daily dose of 3 mg synthetic melatonin or a placebo for 6 months. Levels of melatonin were determined from five daily saliva samples taken at fixed times. Hormone levels were determined from blood samples three times over the 6-month period. Our results indicate that a cause-effect relationship between the decline of nocturnal levels of MEL and onset of menopause may exist. The follow up controls show that melatonin abrogates hormonal, menopause-related neurovegetative disturbances and restores menstrual cyclicity and fertility in perimenopausal or menopausal women. At present we assert that the six-month treatment with melatonin produced a remarkable and highly significant improvement of thyroid function, positive changes of gonadotropins towards more juvenile levels, and abrogation of menopause-related depression.
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If I took 10 mgs of melatonin at night I would be off the wall the next morning and walking with lead weights :o and irritable too.
You really should only take 3mgs at the most http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/fact-sheet-melatonin
Really? Well you can buy 10mg tablets in the shops :)
I've read up loads about melatonin in the past and I'm happy to take 5mg or 10mg as and when I need it :)
and I have never been groggy at all in any way with melatonin - at any dose :)
Sweet Pea, about taking it every night, for me - I don't take it every night, probably take it about once a week. I think you can take it every night though from what I've read.
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Clovie you must not be in the Uk as you cannot buy melatonin in the shops here, only online. It is illegal to sell over the counter and only available on prescription.
I would never advise anyone to take more then 3mgs and at the most 5mgs.
If you google you will find that it was banned in 1995, because of dosage.
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Clovie you must not be in the Uk as you cannot buy melatonin in the shops here, only online. It is illegal to sell over the counter and only available on prescription.
I would never advise anyone to take more then 3mgs and at the most 5mgs.
If you google you will find that it was banned in 1995, because of dosage.
Thank you Silverlady, I am aware of that :) I buy mine in the US.
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Sweet Pea You sound just how I am. I feel like I am wired. Usually about 8pm I am yawning so bad I feel totally shattered but think its too early to go to bed so I try so hard not to go to bed. but then I think sod it I have had hardly any sleep I might as well go to bed. I read for a bit and think that's it i'm shattered turn the light of and its like I just cannot go to sleep. So on goes the light I read or play candy crush and the hours just go by and I just don't feel tired. I usually end up going to sleep about 1am and then I will be awake at 3am then 4.30am usually give up now trying to get back to sleep after that as its so light. I have been like this for about 9months now. Its not all menopause as I have not been a good sleeper for years. But this feeling is different it just feels like i'm hyper so I think it is hormones. Melatonin did not help me but it was years ago that I tried it when my anxiety was sky high.
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PJ44....its hell isn't it. Even though I eventually got through level 77 on one of my wide awake at 5am nights!!! ;D I don't think looking at an ipad screen under the covers is doing me any good either...my brain obviously thinks it it is still daylight. But I don't even feel tired in the early evening, I can't remember the last time I felt properly tired at night - but at 9am in the morning I feel like it is bedtime!! I could sleep for a week then, but have to get up for work. It's all topsy turvy. I used to be a great sleeper. I feel 'wired' too, like there is too much adrenaline. Its definitely physiological, and not just me not being tired. I have learned to never ever underestimate hormones!
Tried melatonin again last night. I nibbled about a quarter of a 5mg chewable tab at 9pm. Can't say it did much for my sleep - it was fitful and broken as usual with the dreaded Sweats - but I must have slept at some point and I certainly did not feel as groggy in the morning. In fact, I felt great this morning for the first time in a long time. Leaped out of bed at 7.30 ready for the day instead of dragging myself, bleary eyed, into the shower ten minutes before I have to leave.
And no heart palpitations.
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Thyroid function tests? :-\
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Sweat pea yes I do seem to do better on candy crush in the middle of the night ;D i'm only on level 50 though and have been stuck on that for a week.
pleased that you got some sleep it really makes the day feel better.
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Hahahaha, bloomin' Candy Crush!!!
GRR!!!
I've been stuck on level 60 for ages, think I've given up now! ;D ;D ;D
Sweet Pea, glad the melatonin was able to help even if only a little, and glad no palpitations! *thumbs up*
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thyroid function tests?
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It's nothing to do with thyroid CLKD. Speaking for myself anyway.
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Thyroid can cause similar symptoms ;) - as can mania ::)
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Just wanted to update. I have taken one quarter of a chewable 5mg melatonin every night at 9pm for the last six nights...and my sleep pattern seems to be transformed! I feel tired and fall asleep by about 11.30. Waking at 4.00 with hot sweat, but get back to sleep, then waking at 7.30 feeling wide awake and great!
I hope it is ok to take 1mg every night....I will probably have a night without any soon and see what happens. At the moment, I feel so much better, it's like it can't be 'wrong' to be taking it.
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There's info here about melatonin sweet pea http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/sleep-topics/melatonin-and-sleep
Taz x
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I nibble a bit of a chewable melatonin tablet too at night, the bottle is full of nibbled bits of melatonin now :)
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Very interesting article Taz
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So glad its working for you Sweet Pea!!
I can't imagine a nibble off a tablet each night is going to do you any harm, its a natural occurring hormone after all.
I personally haven't had to touch either melatonin or diphenhydramine (Nytol) since I started on the utrogestan 11 nights ago :)
Whether its a 'side effect' or not I'm liking the side effect of me sleeping better!!!
Its great!!
At the end of the day, whatever works for us is great. Quality of life if you cannot sleep is not good at all is it? x
So pleased for you - Long may it continue! :)
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Thanks all, interesting article taz.
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It seems to explain the function of melatonin really well. I found the part which talked about the levels of "older people" interesting - although I do wish someone would clarify what they mean by "older"!!
Taz x
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Taz Your classed as old if your over 50 ;D Well that's how it feels to me ;)
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The only thing that helps me have some sleep is taking amitriptyline at night or a sleeping tablet, melatonin has never really worked for me.
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OK.....just an update.
Since starting melatonin have not had nearly so many hot flushes and sweats. Seriously, I've gone from four or five bad ones a day, to maybe one every three days?? Not complaining! Long may it continue
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This might interest you too sweatpea http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01152580
If you want to know more about melatonin's other benefits, amazon have books on it.
Those who don't want to supplement with melatonin-
Sleep in a dark room, because light disrupts melatonin production. If there are light sources you can't control, you might consider wearing a sleep mask.
Make sure you get at least seven full hours of sleep.
“Power down†before bedtime. Try to turn off the computer and the television at least an hour before you turn in.
Get regular exercise. One study found that an hour on a stationary bicycle could increase melatonin levels up to three times.5 This is just an example; it doesn't mean you need to use an exercise bicycle – it just points up the value of exercise in melatonin production.5
Meditate or do some form of deep relaxation before you go to bed. A study found that a period of meditation greatly increased night-time plasma melatonin levels.6
Get some sun during the day. Sunlight inhibits melatonin production, so getting sun exposure during daylight hours gives your pineal gland (which produces the melatonin) a rest so it can spring into action at night.
Try to eat foods that contain melatonin. Mustard seeds, alfalfa and sunflower seeds, fennel seeds, and lemon verbena all contain a good amount of melatonin. Oats, tomatoes, corn, and barley, also contain melatonin, but not as much.
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I have a night light - can't sleep in the dark. If I need sleep in the daytime, I do so. Last night: going to bed at mid-night: even so, I slept very little, due to my ear being bunged up : kept waiting to see if the oil released the feeling of pressure: ::) : and because of restless legs >:( - was up at 3.00 and again at 5.00 taking Nurofen to ease the symptoms. Then slept until 9.00 a.m. :o
It really does take a while to find out what suits each person. Lack of sleep is used as a torture method which shows how important it is for humans. Pity I can't sleep like that kitten, once he's gone, he's gone :-* - then he wakes, full of energy :o