Menopause Matters Forum
General Discussion => This 'n' That => Topic started by: Spadger on October 09, 2012, 11:55:35 AM
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Hi everyone,
I feel very upset that my daughters have fallen out (big style) and I feel torn apart. Both are engaged, and have both recently announced wedding dates, which coincidentally have ended up within 3 months of each other (which has caused a massive argument as one is accusing the other of 'stealing her thunder' and how could she think it was ok to arrange to get married so close together). There was never any sibling rivalry/nastiness when they were children, but now it seems unbelievably that it has just begun! Both have been on the phone in tears to me and I have made it clear that I do not want to be in the middle acting as referee. They are not speaking to each other, and one of them is not speaking to me as she feels that I am on the side of the other and has indicated that she will just arrange a quick wedding to which none of us will be invited... o.m.g. what a mess.
I have always tried to treat them equally and as individuals if that makes sense, as they are very different personality-wise. We have all got on really well as a very close knit family unit up until now, I can't stop crying. Any advice welcome.
Spadger :'(
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First of all a :hug: ......... then ring them both and tell them to begin acting like adults and they will be treated as such.
My sister and I rarely speak. We simply do not get on. I don't miss her. I don't think about her very often .........
of course if these girls had got their acts together they could have had a big joint celebration ::) ..........
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I'd hate it if my two kids fell out. Are their weddings soon, in which case it's maybe nerves.
Personally feel like they need to sort this one out for themselves. It's not fair to have you as piggy in the middle. Tell them that neither of them are being fair on you or themselves. Do they really want to cause so much friction that they fall out over what should be the happiest days of their lives. They should be excited for each other.
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Spadger - Sorry you are feeling so down.
If they are grown up enough to get married, they should behave like grown ups.
Ask them if they know how they are behaving, and how it makes you feel, oh and what it makes them look like generally.
This is not your fault.
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Oh Spadger - I feel so sorry for you. I know everybody communicates by phone and text but in this case I think letters are in order!!
Print off 2 copies of the same letter and send one to each and tell them they are BOTH getting the same letter. When it's in black & white they can't then say "Mum said so and so ...." or misinterpret your words.
First off say you're really sad and upset about this. Keep it simple I think. Repeat that you're not taking sides and you always treat them equally and that all you want is for them to have lovely weddings and no fallings out. You could also say that you are now stepping back and do not want to be involved in any arguments but they are both welcome to come to yours together any time and tell you what they have decided to do. They're grown women after all! :)
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Hi Spadger
Such a shame at a time that should be exciting for all and you caught up in the middle. I like to write things down to express my feelings, so think that Pennyfarthing's advice is good - it would give them time to think and to keep re-reading it while they try to sort it out. I would imagine that a joint wedding would be hard to do though, too many people to invite for a start. You could point out what would be wrong with them getting married 3 months apart? They would still both have a great day with the people they want there and could discuss all their plans with each other - be a sounding board for each other's ideas and promise not to copy the other? You could also point out that the ill-feeling won't be going down well with their intended spouses as men hate arguements, they don't want to put their OH's off altogether. Try not to let their battles get to you, they might be best pals soon and you'll have put yourself through misery in the meantime. x
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Pennyfarthings advice really does seem a good way to go
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Thank you everyone for your replies and good advice, I've always loved having 2 girls and I never thought that it would come to this, especially now that they are grown up - supposedly.
One of my daughters rang me yesterday about something completely different (completely skirting the argument etc and avoiding mentioning either her sister or wedding plans), and we had an ok conversation although a little strained. I have to say I was relieved that at least she seems to be (a) talking to me, and (b) just getting on with her life! She is the level headed one who has always listened to advice and not really rebelled.
The other one is very hot-headed (a bit like me) and has always done exactly what she feels is right, although at times has come back and said things like 'you were right about that Mum', so I hope that eventually she may come round to things.
I am anxious however that things will never be the same between the girls after this - some very venomous things have been said and cannot be taken back - and also that I have lost one of my daughters for the moment - hubby says she'll need me before I need her though! his typical way of simplifying life :)
I know it's early days, and I also agree that maybe writing a letter will be the best way forward. I also can't really see the problem at all of them getting married quite close together (other than finding the money!), it's like there's some unwritten rule somewhere which I am obviously not party to.
I really appreciate the support you have all shown, (and am now crying again...), I don't feel that I can discuss this with anyone else right now, so your help is invaluable.
So thank you all very much, you are all so kind.
love Spadger x
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It seems that underneath it all there have been resentments bubbling away and now they each feel that their thunder has been taken on what should have been 'their' day ::) ........... parents often do not see the niggles within the hierachy of their children. Mine certainly did not but I was told in March this year something which cleared my head a bit by someone who watched closely - apparently when I got told off big time it was ALWAYS my sister that had initiated the argument ;) but my parents would/could not see what was happening.
It's a stressful time this marriage lark ::) - will you wear the same outfit to both or would that be seen as 'wrong' ???
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I think that maybe, given time, your girls will settle down and realise they need each other and most of all they need their mum!
Stay strong! :hug:
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I have 2 cousins exactly the same 60 and 57 sisters who were as kids close as anything
From the moment they were engaged and married had kids its like a tinder box they are always arguing
I lost it with them a few months back got them on the phone and Skype
Told them to F grow up Ive bloody kowone
I said to both of them imagine your me 1 son &his wife my brother&Mum dead a neice I see every 3 years and a Dad
You have 5 siblings all married and thier husbands or wives 30 kids all adults now between you all
8 of those kids have had kids themselves 7 at last count plus you have a Dad and my Dad as oyur Uncle
Then your MUM had 10 brothers and sisters at5 last count over a 100 family members that are close
Yet all the pair of you do is row you are sisters only the 2 of you girls Ive sod all you should be bloody ashamed
Did it work NOPE they said AH but Suzy oyu dont know what she/shes like I slammed the phone on them
There must be or have been some underlaying rivalry between them may one is thinner prettier
Maybe ones hubbie to be is a better earner has more money jel is an ugly thing unless you know the reason keep out
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Don't think I would wear the same outfit to both weddings CLKD - after all this stress I think I deserve 2 outfits ;) I also think you may be right - there probably have been resentments as the girls are so different, have chosen different paths/lives and therefore have had different 'bits of me' in help/support etc, although I always try and be fair and share myself out!
Suzi Q - i understand exactly what you're saying; I too have practically nobody except my daughters & my husband, no siblings of my own and no close family left alive now, so I think that's what is making me so upset - that they have each other and are throwing away the opportunity to plan their respective weddings together. I know they will want totally different days/dresses/venues etc so I don't think there will be much copying going on - and so I really cannot see how this all came about.
I am trying to compile a letter in my head at the moment to send to them both and again I thank you all for your very thoughtful and helpful comments.
Love Spadger x
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Don't think I would wear the same outfit to both weddings CLKD - after all this stress I think I deserve 2 outfits ;) I also think you may be right - there probably have been resentments as the girls are so different, have chosen different paths/lives and therefore have had different 'bits of me' in help/support etc, although I always try and be fair and share myself out!
Suzi Q - i understand exactly what you're saying; I too have practically nobody except my daughters & my husband, no siblings of my own and no close family left alive now, so I think that's what is making me so upset - that they have each other and are throwing away the opportunity to plan their respective weddings together. I know they will want totally different days/dresses/venues etc so I don't think there will be much copying going on - and so I really cannot see how this all came about.
I am trying to compile a letter in my head at the moment to send to them both and again I thank you all for your very thoughtful and helpful comments.
Love Spadger x
Get drafting it on the computer. Once you're happy with it, print off 2 copies and post. I'd also make it clear in there that this is about how YOU feel (regarding their falling out) and that it's tearing you apart and therefore, not to expect any further discussion on this because your piece is said. They're adults and they should appreciate what you're saying and doing to solve what could be a very lengthy falling out.
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Suppose it's to late to suggest eloping............
Might be worth putting in the letter
As PF says, draft the letter, and make it clear that the situation is tearing you apart. Hope things calm down
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New hat, bag and shoes too ;)
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the only thing in a LETTER is once you put to pen anything can be misconstrued
Im not saying its not a good idea but one Id think carefully about x
They cant understand the idea of knowone there for them no more than my cousins can
I was at a wedding yesterday and saw all the people with their families they dont know how lucky they are
I had me my hubbie and son then dinlaw but as much as I try its like Im just a friend
So its hard to explain they will have to makwe their own minds up and come to some understanding
Dont let them rowing cause you any more pain its between them you cant make them like each other
The old saying you cant choose your family but you can your friends I think sometimes is so true
Big hugs OK xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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At least without too many family members tha can't fall out ;) and we are both parts of a large family but don't see that much of any of them as we have got older (and wiser ;) )
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Suzi Q & CLKD - families are a nightmare at times aren't they - I often think of the times when the kids were little, it was such a struggle financially, emotionally and physically, but now I'd go back in a heartbeat. It's true that you can't choose your family, and I wouldn't want to swap mine, but sometimes I feel like running away (I'll live on an island somewhere - hopefully with Johnny Depp).
Looking fondly at other people with their families may be a bit 'grass is greener', I'm sure they all have their problems from time to time.
Meanwhile I'm still in the same predicament, but now resigned to staying out of it and getting on with things and trying not to cry so much!
Love Spadger xxx
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Suzi Q & CLKD - families are a nightmare at times aren't they - I often think of the times when the kids were little, it was such a struggle financially, emotionally and physically, but now I'd go back in a heartbeat. It's true that you can't choose your family, and I wouldn't want to swap mine, but sometimes I feel like running away (I'll live on an island somewhere - hopefully with Johnny Depp).
Looking fondly at other people with their families may be a bit 'grass is greener', I'm sure they all have their problems from time to time.
Meanwhile I'm still in the same predicament, but now resigned to staying out of it and getting on with things and trying not to cry so much!
Love Spadger xxx
Spadger - sorry your probs with daughters are still on-going. I really am. I have probs with my brothers and that's bad enough. See my other thread for details! ::) I fluctuate in how I feel - some days I feel strong and think I've done all I can to make up with them (for my elderly Mum's sake) other days I keep remembering that my brother said "I have nothing to say to you." I am off to bed now and I know those words will be going through my brain until I go to sleep. I'm guessing you also have sleepless nights and it's so draining isn't it? Have a hug. :hug:xx
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Hi Spadger. I am sorry to hear that the argument between your daughters is still continuing. It must be heartbreaking for you at a time when you should be excited about the events.
I do hope the girls come round and also realise the distress they are causing. Good for you to withdraw and let them sort it out.
Thinking of you.
And you pennyFarthing. I think I replied to you on the other thread Fx
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Thank you for the hug Pennyfarthing - it was obviously heartfelt and really made me feel better - and I am so sorry that you too have family problems, so I am sending you a hug back. :)
Thank you also Firewalker50 for your support, I feel glad that I found this forum as it makes me realise that I am not alone whatever problem I happen to have, menopause related or otherwise - and there's always something!
love Spadger xxx
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Pennyfarthing I took your advice and wrote identical letters, still early days but both now speaking to me and I feel hopeful that they will make up soon. Thank you so much, Spadger x
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Pennyfarthing I took your advice and wrote identical letters, still early days but both now speaking to me and I feel hopeful that they will make up soon. Thank you so much, Spadger x
Oh wow Spadger - I am SO pleased for you all. Any communication is better than none. Now I need to sort my own family probs out!! ;D ;D
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that's progress ;)
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I hope you manage to sort out your problems too Pennyfarthing - sometimes it's a lot easier to look objectively at someone else's issues than your own!
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Great news Spadger - little steps.
Great idea Pennyfarthing. I hope you find a solution to your own problems too.
Fx
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Great news Spadger - little steps.
Great idea Pennyfarthing. I hope you find a solution to your own problems too.
Fx
Sadly, I don't think I will find a solution. You can't communicate with somebody who will not speak to you can you? A few years ago I organised a surprise party for Mum and Dad's Diamond Wedding and spent ages composing letters to both brothers. I wanted the whole family to attend and had invited family from abroad too.
I was pleased with the letter and said that I was planning this surprise party and it was taking place in 6 months time (so they had plenty of notice). I said that they could invite who they liked, just to let me know for catering reasons. I also said any practical help on the day would be great. One brother did contact me and was helpful on the day. The brother (who is currently not speaking to me) and his wife never even replied.
On the day everybody (about 100 people) was there except this brother & wife and son and we all shared the surprise which was fab. They came in about 20 minutes late having missed all that and sat there looking like a pair of snobs. Later on I thanked them for coming and said it was such a shame they missed the surprise (Mum and Dad just thought they were going for a drive out) and my brother said "we had friends over, you know how it is." I couldn't help myself, I politely said "No, actually I don't. Nothing or nobody would be more important that M & D's Diamond Wedding and you have known about this for 6 months."
Poor old Dad was so pleased that they'd turned up and obviously thought this was to be a fresh start but it wasn't. He did comment that they turned up late - well everyone noticed them coming in late actually and a few other people commented. I think they did that because they knew it would upset M & D if they didn't show and it would emerge that they had been invited but refused. So they made a big thing of being late and sitting there looking bored stiff whilst everybody else was having a great time.
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Probably because the emphasis wasn't on them! My sister is the same .......... has to make The Entrance and has to tell all and sundry why/where/who she's been with that has made her late ............ >:( trouble is, that type of scenario plays on my mind for years afterwards and of course, she would deny it all. When we got engaged she had to take the single rose from my bouquet and pose with it, nothing was said but I've never forgiven her. :-\
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Families ::) We all have them and have stories to tell............but I don't think we should let these things prey on our minds, nowt as queer as folk eh!
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Families ::) We all have them and have stories to tell............but I don't think we should let these things prey on our minds, nowt as queer as folk eh!
No, I'm with you on that flushtered but it's not always that cut and dried.
I am starting to worry about what will happen if my elderly Mum takes ill or needs extra help or even worse. They don't speak to me now so if something happens who is going to tell me? I worry so much about this. I can go days and think positively and just like you, say "families hey?" ::) but then I get a few days when I can't get it off my mind.
It is such a worry and I can't see a way round it. When my Mum has had to go into hospital for ops I have always asked if she'd like to come back here for a few days and she always does. Because they don't speak to me they never even ring up and ask how she is in case I answer the phone I guess. She always tells them she's coming here and they know our number so there's no excuse. I think that's truly terrible.
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Hi Pennyfarthing
I sense your sadnessan frustration and annoyance with this.
I wonder what you could do to manage the situation with your Mum. For example, what would you do if you had no siblings. What would you put in place? I am not sure how much time and contact you have with your Mum compared with your brother's). And why you would not know if anything happened, however, perhaps you can think of ways that you would know or could be told - assuming you have no siblings.
I would not like to be in your position and I hope you can a way to separate yourself in such a way they have no influence over your thoughts and life.
Fx
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Hi Pennyfarthing
I sense your sadnessan frustration and annoyance with this.
I wonder what you could do to manage the situation with your Mum. For example, what would you do if you had no siblings. What would you put in place? I am not sure how much time and contact you have with your Mum compared with your brother's). And why you would not know if anything happened, however, perhaps you can think of ways that you would know or could be told - assuming you have no siblings.
I would not like to be in your position and I hope you can a way to separate yourself in such a way they have no influence over your thoughts and life.
Fx
That's a great post and has really made me think. In fact I am going to mull that over in bed tonight and report back tomorrow. The good thing about this forum is that everyone sees things from different perspectives. Thanks.
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Look forward to hearing your plan of action
Fx ;)
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Any news?
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Update of my situation: daughter (a) who was not speaking to me initially is now speaking to me, daughter (b) is still speaking to me but seems to have distanced herself from me slightly.
Daughter (b) has said that she has tried to contact Daughter (a) several times, however Daughter (a) denies any such attempts. They met at a family gathering recently and daughter (a) tried to initiate talks with daughter (b) which was met with a civil if stoney faced response...and which now seems to have broken down to not speaking at all (as they live 70 miles apart this is not difficult).
Christmas is a worry at the moment, first time in my adulthood that I am not cooking for all and sundry as we were invited to daughter (b)'s house for Christmas which hubby & I accepted - she also invited daughter (a)+fiance before the fall out - presumably now she has 'uninvited' her - without actually voicing it. Now wish I was cooking for all and sundry and let those who want to turn up do so.... feel torn about going to daughter (a)'s house and daughter (b) not being with family/me as I know she loves a big old fashioned family Christmas. Toyed with the idea of disappearing on a cruise for Xmas/New Year but not sure if that would make matters worse and make me feel even more sad.
:-\ Spadger x
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Oh Spadger, what a mess. You must be feeling terrible and it would be difficult at any time of the year, but with Christmas coming it is horrible.
I think I would go for the cruise and keep out of it all. Unless you can all get together and clear the air - but not sure how feasible that would be?
Sending you a hug and lots of support
Purplenanny x x
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If you think that if you would enjoy a cruise, I think that's a great idea. It might be a wake-up call for them both apart from anything else.
Bette x
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I feel for you Spadger. I wonder if you feel worse than they do?
Christmas is a challenging time for many families. If you feel like going away, versus the potential upsetting vibe at Christmas, then go ahead.
At first I thought, you had already accepted daughter (a) so go ahead as was planned.
Or, you could discuss with daughter (a) and (b) and suggest you have everyone at yours.
On the other hand, if you simply do something for yourself and go away, perhaps this will give them a wake up call. You can simply say that you do not wish to be in the middle of all the squabbling at Christmas time so you are taking time out for yourself this year and perhaps it will be back to normal next year.
Follow your heart.
Fx
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You wouldn't have time to feel sad on a cruise, so go and enjoy yourselves. Better than wondering whitch daughter you might upset. They would get over it, and you never know, they might have made up by the time you got home.
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Hello Spadger and sorry things are still no better. Did you ever send them the letter we spoke about?
I honestly would go on the cruise with your hubby and forget the lot of them. They're not kids anymore and you deserve a peaceful Xmas and a bit of sun would surely do you good!
You might even find that with you away they contact each other to compare notes on what made you decide to go away. Just tell them the truth - you felt like a change this year! :)
TBH I would give my right arm to go away (just once) for Xmas. Hubby always wants to be at home, so does DD and son will come home, although I know if I said we were going away he'd be fine and do his own thing.
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No Spag
I understand exactly how you feel
Last year dinlaw woke up went to her MUMS 10mins away didnt come back till 1pm they were supposed to be at ours
They arrived 1.30 or so opened their presents and chatted then we had Salad Trifle etc (we are in Ozz)
At 3.30pm son said MUM we need to go soon I said what yuve only been here a couple of hours he said
We havent opened our presents to each other yet and have to be at her MUMS for Xmas diinner at 6pm
Hang on said I why cos she stayed too late at her MUMs I was fkin furious so by 4pm they were gone
They spend Xmas eve wiuth her family Xmas morning and Xmas night I get the bits left over
So I said as theyve moved in to a big new home Why dont we come over 1pmish bring the Ham sald Trifle bit etc
You lay the table get crakers and drink and we will have it at yours if oyu like that way no rush for her at her parents
No drive there and bavck to us 1hr round trip and no leaving early which upsets me they said YES
Bobbles said bloody hell love all this so we can spend time with son he doesnt patic like dinlaw and what about r dinner
He said it takes 1 and a half hours to get the Webber hot to put the pork on then 2 hrs to cook if we get home at 4 pm it wont go on till 5.30ish then 2 hrs to cook so 7.30 at the earliest to eat I went mental I said OK I made a mistake IM soory shoot me I didnt tthink I thoought it would be a better solution OK you tell son its opff or we come earlier say 12pm leave at 3pmish he said but what if she stays at her MUMS till 2pm all this to see son
If I could sod off I would go some where ahhhhhh but I want to see my son on Xmas day so its on for this year anyway
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For 3 years we escaped the routine of the previous 35 ::)but now that Mother is alone .........
I would change my mind and tell both daughters that you and your husband are having C/mas day at home alone .......... :-\ you will probably never know exactly what triggered their falling out, my sister and I will never get on for long and it's better that we don't see each other. We speak on the 'phone when necessary.
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Still unsure - Hubby has now explained that he is not that keen to go away for xmas, and that we would offend the daughter who has invited us for dinner if we did not go - I'm trying to convince myself that 'it's just another meal' and we can do our own thing for the rest of the time off work... I feel for the other daughter who will be left out of the family festivities but will try & spend some time with her too. What a mess, I never thought it would come to this. So busy at the moment, just trying to do xmas shopping is enough to worry about!
p.s. yes Pennyfarthing I did write, and it helped in that I am no longer a referee, they just talk to me about other things and skirt round the issue!
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Still unsure - Hubby has now explained that he is not that keen to go away for xmas, and that we would offend the daughter who has invited us for dinner if we did not go - I'm trying to convince myself that 'it's just another meal' and we can do our own thing for the rest of the time off work... I feel for the other daughter who will be left out of the family festivities but will try & spend some time with her too. What a mess, I never thought it would come to this. So busy at the moment, just trying to do xmas shopping is enough to worry about!
p.s. yes Pennyfarthing I did write, and it helped in that I am no longer a referee, they just talk to me about other things and skirt round the issue!
Good. I think you've done all you can then. If they're skirting round things that's good in a way because they must understand now how much all this has upset you.
I'm just thinking out loud here but is your hubby more bothered about offending your daughter than he is of you having a peaceful Xmas? I don't feel you will enjoy yourself on the day because you'll probably be thinking about the left-out daughter.
You're right it is a mess and family stuff like this makes my insides go into knots.
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The left out daughter has made choices. Could it be that she isn't keen to continue with the rigmarole of C/mas? How many people are honest around this time of year? It took us 38 years to break the routine >:( but eventually we were so physcially and mentally worn out by trying to please everyone that I said NO MORE!
Maybe get together the week before with both of them separately ............. explain what you and your husband plan to do ;)
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Quick update: text messages exchanged between daughters during the past few days, both realising that they are fed up with the situation and also missing each other... then phone calls were made.... and apparently now they are speaking and arranging to meet up. (I hope I didn't dream this, no pinched myself - ouch) so waiting to see what this week brings -anyone would think it was the season of good will or something! ;)
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:hug:
Just for you. xxx
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Great news, Spadger. :foryou: Hopefully things will continue to improve.
Bette x
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Hopefully the girls will have grown up in these last few months ....... now, about that trip that *you* wanted to take over C.mas?
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That's great Spadger, such a relief for you.
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Wonderful news Spadger. I love it when things work out. :)
I think now this would be the PERFECT time to have a Xmas away (just the 2 of you) they'll probably get even closer while you're away and you'll feel better for a break and a chance to step back for a while. So pleased for you.
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I am so glad to read that your girls have made up :)
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Hi Spadger. It has been a difficult time and I am so pleased they have made moves to sort things out.
It is indeed the season of goodwill.
Fx
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YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY well done xxxxxxxxx
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Any news?
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Any news?
I've been wondering about this too. :)
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Thanks for asking ladies, the girls are on quite good terms now and are planning their respective weddings. They are each going to be bridesmaid to the other so that's a positive sign! I haven't had time on the forum for ages as wedding fever has hit and plans are well underway for the first one in a couple of months. The other will be next spring, I really appreciate all the advice and support you gave me. I feel so relieved, it felt like my world was falling apart when this happened. Sorry I haven't updated sooner...
Take care all, love Spadger x
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That's great news :)
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:D :D :D :D :D
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Great news Spadger. So pleased to hear. And you must be excited with only a couple of months to go for the first one!
Fx
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Excited/anxious in equal measure Firewalker! Being in a hormonal/constant flushes phase with the added new symptom of memory loss/brain fog seems to leave me worrying about *nothing* until the wee hours :-) In my calm/non-flushing moments I can see that everything will be fine...sometimes :-\
love Spadger x
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2 new hats, 2 new handbags, 4 new shoes, dress/outfits ......... ;D ..........
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Lovely to be updated. Thanks Spadger. :)
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CLKD - I already have 1 new dress, shoes, handbag & hat - how exciting! Will wait until the first one's done & dusted then concentrate on my new outfit for the second wedding, it seems ages since I chose such lovely new things ;)
Love Spadger x
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OOOOoooooo - would you like to describe it and share it with us? Colour, style etc.?
Fx
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OOOOoooooo yep -