Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Alternative Therapies => Topic started by: Scampidoodle on December 23, 2022, 10:40:11 AM
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Hi
Looking for posts from people who have used natural progesterone cream and had a positive story? I suffer when my oestrogen is high, throughout the first half of my cycle up to ovulation. Then again when you get that rise in the second half of your cycle.
I’ve tried utrogestan and get very depressed and non functional about 5 days in and get insomnia right away too. It’s too much for me.
I’m 43, not fully into peri yet and I have the Mirena coil. I have histamine issues which for those who know are worse when oestrogen is present so need a small amount of progesterone to balance.
All those in the searches I find who have succcess have left? Hopefully not made to leave with negative comments!
Anyway if you use this and you have info please let me know! Thanks x
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Hello Scampidoodle
Unfortunately I cannot help with your question but I think Mary G, who still posts on the forum has had success with progesterone cream.
Can I ask if red and itchy blotches appear on your skin as part of your histamine reaction to oestrogen? I am trying to work out why this happens to me on HRT and I would welcome your insight. Many thanks.
Btw wouldn't it be great if everyone updated the forum when they found a solution to their problems! The information and knowledge gained here would be fantastic!
Take care and wishing you well.
K.
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Thanks for your reply Kathleen. I appreciate that. Hope Mary G and any others using it can help!
I just know progesterone
, or something to counter my estrogen, helps. Twice now I’ve had my Mirena replaced and it’s immediately helped my issues. I think as it dampens my oestrogen or counters it. I’ve tried the progesterone pill but had a bad reaction with depression. Just a v small amount of progesterone seems to help. Hence me wondering about the P cream.
My symptoms during estrogen times of my cycle are anxiety, foggy head, really tired, really angry/irritable, nausea, jittery. I’m not on hrt after a disastrous trial with it a couple of years ago which uncovered that I had issues with histamine.
Red itchy patches may well be a histamine reaction Kathleen. Oestrogen raises histamine and histamine raises oestrogen. X
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Hello again Scampidoodle
I hope that the ladies who are on this forum and are currently using progesterone cream can help you.
Many thanks for your thoughts on histamine and Oestrogen. Back in the day I would sometimes have red itchy lumps appear on my skin, usually my jawline. It would be hot and itchy for about 15 minutes and then quickly fade away. I never did find out what caused them and they may have been related to my cycle.
Nowadays a hot red patch can appear anywhere and after a few minutes of scratching it disappears. Obviously I don't have a cycle anymore but I am using HRT so perhaps that is the cause. The only thing I know about histamine is that it is influenced by B12 and I already supplement with that.
I wish you luck with your search for an effective progesterone cream and please let us know how you get on.
Wishing you well and take care.
K.
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Thanks Kathleen you’re very kind. Hormones are so linked to histamine and so many meno and peri symptoms are influenced by histamine. It’s a minefield!
I just ordered some Biovea. I darent use it though without a little help from someone who has used it!
X
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What does it suggest on the product label?
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There is a long thread on compounded hormones that you may find useful. Some people have found a bcp helpful in early peri, it might be worth discussing it with your gp.
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Scampi, hellosam666 was using biovea alongside the mini pill (cerazette).
She appears to have left the forum (hopefully because she is in a good place) but she gave me lots of chat about biovea on the bhrt thread, worth looking through.
Xx
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Thankyou both! Appreciate it! X
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Scampidoodle, I've just been alerted to your thread by another member!
I have a long thread on compounded progesterone in this section but Kathleen is right, I'm currently using branded progesterone gel with great success.
I have also used Biovea progesterone cream but I use the gel because I can easily buy it in any pharmacy in Spain. To be honest, in my experience, they are both about the same ie no side effects and nothing like Utrogestan.
I take it you need progesterone for its calming effects?
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Ah thanks Mary (and whoever alerted you!) so you use gel. It’s good to hear it’s equivalent ish to biovea.
I would like its calming effects and for it to dampen the effects of my estrogen a bit. My estrogen is falling today post ovulation and honestly life is so much better. Until it starts to climb again in a few days.
When I had my Mirena inserted no one would believe how much it helped me as the dose was small and it’s local etc but it did! I don’t cope well with large doses or any drug and also struggle a lot with taking meds orally. It’s almost like I have to sneak them into my body somehow so it doesn’t react.
For info the Mirena has helped me twice now but after a while things creep back. I’ve had my current one for 6 months now and it hasn’t had the same effect this time. Maybe my own progesterone is lower now I’m 43.
So how has it helped you Mary, how much do you use, where do you put it etc X
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Scampidoodle, I use progesterone as part of a continuous combined HRT regime. I use four generous pumps (roughly 50mg) of progesterone gel and one generous pump of oestrogen gel every day. I apply the oestrogen gel to inner thighs in the morning and the progesterone gel to both (entire) arms at night - there is an awful lot of the progesterone gel to apply.
In my case, progesterone is a necessity because I use oestrogen but I think it plays an important role as a hormone stabiliser and taken at the right dose and (this is just my experience) transdermally, I think it has a calming effect and aids sleep without the constant hunger caused by some forms of progesterone and most definitely without the dreadful side effects of Utrogestan and some of the synthetic progesterone brands. I get a decent progesterone blood reading and good endometrial protection too so it definitely works.
It's interesting that you found the Mirena coil helpful because it contains a synthetic progesterone. I have had two of them myself in the past but they didn't have a particularly positive effect other than birth control and keeping the womb lining thin - too thin in my case. What it might indicate in your case is spiking, surging oestrogen and the coil was dampening down those surges - this is sometimes referred to as oestrogen dominance. If the coil was losing its effectiveness it would suggest you are further into menopause and your own progesterone level has diminished. Progesterone goes west first during the menopause and quite a long time before oestrogen starts seriously tanking.
Although the synthetic progesterone in the Mirena coil is mostly absorbed into the womb, enough of it gets into your overall system to cause side effects.
Synthetic progesterone does not show up on blood tests but natural progesterone does.
I think progesterone cream could really help and I would definitely give it a try. I hope that helps and please do come back with more questions if you need to.
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Thankyou Mary for all that information.
Definitely progesterone is a necessity for your regime. Mine isn’t but, I do feel like it’s the missing piece for me. I’ve just had a trial and error process with so many meds this last few months and years that it’s a scary process.
I think you’re right that the Mirena stopped the effects of spiking and surging oestrogen with the first two (inserted 2018 and 2021) - oestrogen raises my histamine levels that set off my mast cells so calming the surge is esssential for me. So many of the symptoms I get are so like the symptoms people get for low oestrogen (hot flushes, anxiety, heart flutters, facial flushing, exhaustion, depression) but for me oestrogen is the devil. I tried oestrogel a few years ago before finding out all this and I felt poisoned.
So I’ve ordered the biovea but I would be really interested in what you all think would be best, to add progesterone cream to counter my E or to take stuff to minimise the impact of E a bit, like Dim and/or calcium d glucarate. My E levels have never ever been really high, even when not in peri my levels can range from 97 at the start of the cycle to 430 just before ovulation. But that’s enough E for me, in fact the day I tested 97 I felt really good as it was on day 3 of my cycle and the E hadn’t started rising loads yet.
I think Mary G and Dangermouse are knowledgeable on this. I think Dangermouse takes Dim. But obviously anyone who has an opinion please say!
Thanks ladies I really appreciate it xx
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You are right, dangermouse takes DIM successfully and she has a similar oestrogen problem to yourself. If you send her a PM, I think she will be able to help because she is great on the scientific side of hormones and she has a lot of personal experience with oestrogen dominance.
I would definitely start with the progesterone cream and possibly introduce DIM but I would ask dangermouse for her opinion.
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Thanks Mary I will send her a message. I’ve ordered it all so just need to wait for it all to arrive. I do feel like one of them is the solution to my issues it’s just finding the right doses and formulations and of course tolerating! X
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Happy New Year all!
So I am post meno (couple of years plus another 2 years where only one or two bleeds) and my progesterone levels are still too low for my (now low) oestrogen level - remember it's all about the ratio (unless you have osteoporosis when you may need more).
DIM helps occasionally to clear out the build up of oestrogen but it takes 2 days for my liver to process it (as I cannot tolerate CDG or other phase 2 liver supps as they give me digestive issues). In that 2 days I get blurred vision and feel lethargic but then feel great for a few days. I did used to take it every day (about a year ago) but I think it lowered my oestrogen too much as I started getting dry eyes and worsening constipation.
As my issue is low progesterone, what works for me best is in the form of a compounded progesterone cream, taking about 25mg twice a day.
When your oestrogen is still surging about then it can be tricky to control it with progesterone but, for me, it eventually started to retain a balance.
I do occasionally try an oestrogen patch to see if feel any better but it always over stimulates me and causes a tense feeling that doesn't go away. It also makes me intolerant of protein foods and alcohol, getting palpitations after just 2 glasses of wine! That will be because oestrogen is a stimulant. The progesterone cream makes my heart beat normally and I also have less allergic reactions.
Not sure if any of that helps but has been my experience after awful oestrogen dominance starting 8 years ago that caused severe nausea migraines.
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Hi Dangermouse.
Can I ask if you ever tried agnus castus?? As you know, I've been trying prog cream - but I've actually found it overstimulates my estrogen. So I've stopped for now.
But my E is surging, I have some bad symptoms (but not as bad, or the same as when adding in prog) so I'm going to try and get my body to balance itself with agnus castus.
Any experience???? :)
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I did try that but as with most herbs I got a migraine - I get it with most that dilate blood vessels so I avoid herbs now.
Did you end up having the oestrogen test (can't remember the name) where you take lots of samples in a short space of time?
Progesterone sometimes, like DIM, throws out too much oestrogen for me too (and was too hard to deal with in peri). There's also all the oestrogen that sits in our tissues that increases in menopause but my surging is now less frequent so it is easier to deal with.
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Thanks Dangermouse. Interesting about migraines - that's what happened to me when I took AC 5 years ago. But I was on mega dose!!!
I've had so many tests this year - including the Dutch, if that's the one you mean.
Basically, low dose Prog made me feel ill - felt like my E was being stimulated. Indeed in Sept my E had increased to 2089!!! That was the prog that did it. Higher doses gave me side affects. I then tried a herbal blend to reduce my E... That tanked it to 1.7. I actually felt better, but the herbs killed my stomach and I had to stop. I was also trying utrogestan at that time and it just comatosed me.
Now I've stopped everything and my E is back up in the 300s.
After the year I've had of progesterone trials, I totally believe it threw out my tissue E. In fact, I've recently read that prolactin is a better measure of estrogen dominance. I have high prolactin - also the reason for me retrying AC
So. You can now tolerate prog no problem since meno??? Hoping my day will come.
Do you get much support with thix Dangermouse??? The whole of the UK seem to believe estrogen is the only answer!!!
X
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Thanks dangermouse and Crispychick, that's very interesting and highlights once again the lack of information out there for women with oestrogen dominance.
I agree it's all about ratio and stability and if your hormones are seriously out of kilter, a whole host of problems arise - in my case it was silent migraines.
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Happy New Year all!
So I am post meno (couple of years plus another 2 years where only one or two bleeds) and my progesterone levels are still too low for my (now low) oestrogen level - remember it's all about the ratio (unless you have osteoporosis when you may need more).
DIM helps occasionally to clear out the build up of oestrogen but it takes 2 days for my liver to process it (as I cannot tolerate CDG or other phase 2 liver supps as they give me digestive issues). In that 2 days I get blurred vision and feel lethargic but then feel great for a few days. I did used to take it every day (about a year ago) but I think it lowered my oestrogen too much as I started getting dry eyes and worsening constipation.
As my issue is low progesterone, what works for me best is in the form of a compounded progesterone cream, taking about 25mg twice a day.
When your oestrogen is still surging about then it can be tricky to control it with progesterone but, for me, it eventually started to retain a balance.
I do occasionally try an oestrogen patch to see if feel any better but it always over stimulates me and causes a tense feeling that doesn't go away. It also makes me intolerant of protein foods and alcohol, getting palpitations after just 2 glasses of wine! That will be because oestrogen is a stimulant. The progesterone cream makes my heart beat normally and I also have less allergic reactions.
Not sure if any of that helps but has been my experience after awful oestrogen dominance starting 8 years ago that caused severe nausea migraines.
Thanks for posting Dangermouse and happy new year to you! It is totally all about ratio and I think mine are very off!
I am on day 2 of Dim. I really didn’t know which to use but my Dim arrived before my progesterone cream! So I went for it. Have had a headache which I read is expected at first. I’ve had genetic tests done to map my oestrogen pathways and discovered I make too much oestrogen to begin with (my progesterone and testosterone both convert into more oestrogen) and then my oestrogen goes down the two other unfavourable pathways more than the one you want it to go down (it’s v complicated!) So Dim apparently would help to rectify both of those things.
But I also have issues with phase 2 dangermouse, which im trying to support with B vits (especially folate) zinc and magnesium. But that’s what I was concerned about that I might get a back up of oestrogen.
So when you said it would take two days to detox and then you felt good again, would that cycle then repeat itself again and again when you took Dim daily?
I’ve had the severe nausea migraines too and think my issues began approx 8 years ago too! I can get palpitations and my histamine issues are worse when oestrogen is present and out of balance. These can range from nausea, migraines to anxiety, jittery feelings, brain fog. Progesterone calms histamine which makes sense with you getting less allergic reactions.
You read that so many women swear by progesterone cream but so many are quick to discredit it completely. X
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I did try that but as with most herbs I got a migraine - I get it with most that dilate blood vessels so I avoid herbs now.
Did you end up having the oestrogen test (can't remember the name) where you take lots of samples in a short space of time?
Progesterone sometimes, like DIM, throws out too much oestrogen for me too (and was too hard to deal with in peri). There's also all the oestrogen that sits in our tissues that increases in menopause but my surging is now less frequent so it is easier to deal with.
What did you do in peri, dangermouse when things were more unpredictable?
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Hi there
Just had a quick look at this thread
Sorry to hear about your symptoms scampidoodle. I don't know anything about histamine...however you say you're not peri-menopausal yet. May I ask how you know where you are in menopause as you have the Mirena coil and this stops periods before they would stop naturally?
As I read earlier in the thread - if you are peri-menopausal and your hormones are surging and fluctuating wildly, the combined pill can be used to regulate this - your cycle - and is prescribed by some gynaecologists at this stage. You would then not need the Mirena coil. There are some combi contraceptive pills which are similar to HRT.
Re ratio of oestrogen to progesterone. As far as I know, there is no absolute ratio that needs to be aimed for in order for women to feel OK. They don't "balance" each other in this way. The only place that the right balance is necessary is for endometrial protection - because oestrogen stimulates this to grow, and progesterone changes the structure ready for pregnancy, and then if no pregnancy, then it is shed - but there needs to be sufficient progesterone for this.
One of the characteristics of progesterone is that it is a sedative, and has various biological effects etc. Some women like this effect and therefore progesterone can be used like a drug for this purpose alone - but not because of any way that it "balances" the oestrogen. (unless recent research has shown this to be the case - I'm going by what I've absorbed through reading over the years).
"You read that so many women swear by progesterone cream but so many are quick to discredit it completely. X"
It's not a question of discrediting it for the sake of it, but that as far as I know the evidence from trials has not indicated progesterone cream to be an effective treatment for menopausal symptoms, and that for the majority of women oestrogen based HRT is the most effective. If you are not yet at peri-menopause then this doesn't really apply.
Having said that the very weak progesterone cream that you obtain off the shelf will not do you any harm as very little will be absorbed , and in any case I'm not sure whether it will have any effect at all given you have the Mirena coil and if I recall correctly (though again haven't looked this up recently!), the synthetic progestogens may have a greater affinity for progesterone receptors than natural bioidentical progesterone.
From what you say about your symptoms it may well be, rather than focussing too much on exactly what might be happening (which is probably impossible to tell,) and trying a cocktail of various products that may not have an evidence base to support their use, you might be better off with a combi pill, if you feel the high oestrogen is affecting histamine issues?
Measuring oestrogen levels is probably counterproductive because they vary so much....
Anyway, just a few thoughts, and wishing you well in sorting out how to feel better!
Hurdity x
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Thanks for all the info. Unfortunately the combined pill causes me lots of issues too, it’s just a huge dose of hormones which flared all my symptoms. I was on it for years in my 20’s with no issue but trying to go back on it or start the PoP is a no go for me. I wish it was an option. It seems with my body very small doses of things have a big effect so I don’t need much.
I say I’m not peri but I guess I mean I don’t think I’m massively into it as in near menopause but I’m 43 and given my issues I am probably in it somewhere. I still have a period on the Mirena, it’s never stopped it for me so I still have a cycle.
Histamine and hormones are intrinsically linked and a lot of women who can’t tolerate oestrogen or it causes more symptoms may find they’re histamine intolerant. Not all, but some. If that’s the case, progesterone can help.
I think there is some balancing act between the two hormones or dampening down of oestrogen via some mechanism which benefits some people.
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This is such a shame. We are being let down by the lack of 'evidence' here in the UK.
Scampi - you know your issues are caused by high/surging estrogen. I know mine are, Dangermouse knows hers are.
It's so sad there is no support for us. Balance is very much key here. We need prog to balance our surging estrogen in peri... And beyond, as Dangermouse is finding out. It's heavily documented that progesterone goes south well before estrogen - so I don't get the thinking in the UK.
I also don't get why they'd want to throw more estrogen at us... Which is what they do here. Surely that's downright dangerous?!
I had a medichecks capillary blood test done a few weeks ago. They asked what I wanted to find out, I said I was checking my state of estrogen dominance - I then got a lecture from medichecks (whom I was paying) that estrogen dominance doesn't exist, according to the nice guidelines. Right. It just exists outside of the UK then. ;D
I'm not new to this... I've been battling this for 5 years. I have estrogen dominance, beyond doubt!
Scampi, you know my experience with prog cream - good brands are not 'very weak'. I experienced real changes, as does Dangermouse. Mary uses bespoke progesterone and keeps her uterine lining thin. These are real hormones. With power. Hurdity does have a point about the receptors and the progesterone /progestin competing. But give it a go?! We all respond differently.
I tried every combined pill under the sun over the course of a year... And, whilst some brought some symptom relief, they all brought new symptoms. There are a few threads about combined pills for peri on MM. That's it. That's all the NHS meno clinic could offer me. Very sad and disappointing.
At least we can talk about it and share experiences here. Xx
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Thanks Dangermouse. Interesting about migraines - that's what happened to me when I took AC 5 years ago. But I was on mega dose!!!
I've had so many tests this year - including the Dutch, if that's the one you mean.
So. You can now tolerate prog no problem since meno??? Hoping my day will come.
Do you get much support with thix Dangermouse??? The whole of the UK seem to believe estrogen is the only answer!!!
X
Yes that's it, the DUTCH one. I've not had myself.
Progesterone cream is now easier to tolerate as less volatility but even post meno I have 2 points in cycle that repeat approximately every 28 days when feel a surge!
I didn't get support really as when I was at my worst menopause wasn't discussed anywhere and my GP assumed I had a stomach ulcer and made me take lots of PPIs for 6 months which wrecked my stomach (not been the same since)! I then had great support from a private endocrinologist who diagnosed gastric migraines and said I need progesterone to to dampen the oestrogen surges. She was honest about how difficult it would be and to stop and start again if got too much. It helped but even the combined pill couldn't stop my surges but fortunately it did all calm down the last few years - albeit it very gradually!
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Happy New Year all!
So I am post meno (couple of years plus another 2 years where only one or two bleeds) and my progesterone levels are still too low for my (now low) oestrogen level - remember it's all about the ratio (unless you have osteoporosis when you may need more).
DIM helps occasionally to clear out the build up of oestrogen but it takes 2 days for my liver to process it (as I cannot tolerate CDG or other phase 2 liver supps as they give me digestive issues). In that 2 days I get blurred vision and feel lethargic but then feel great for a few days. I did used to take it every day (about a year ago) but I think it lowered my oestrogen too much as I started getting dry eyes and worsening constipation.
As my issue is low progesterone, what works for me best is in the form of a compounded progesterone cream, taking about 25mg twice a day.
When your oestrogen is still surging about then it can be tricky to control it with progesterone but, for me, it eventually started to retain a balance.
I do occasionally try an oestrogen patch to see if feel any better but it always over stimulates me and causes a tense feeling that doesn't go away. It also makes me intolerant of protein foods and alcohol, getting palpitations after just 2 glasses of wine! That will be because oestrogen is a stimulant. The progesterone cream makes my heart beat normally and I also have less allergic reactions.
Not sure if any of that helps but has been my experience after awful oestrogen dominance starting 8 years ago that caused severe nausea migraines.
Thanks for posting Dangermouse and happy new year to you! It is totally all about ratio and I think mine are very off!
I am on day 2 of Dim. I really didn’t know which to use but my Dim arrived before my progesterone cream! So I went for it. Have had a headache which I read is expected at first. I’ve had genetic tests done to map my oestrogen pathways and discovered I make too much oestrogen to begin with (my progesterone and testosterone both convert into more oestrogen) and then my oestrogen goes down the two other unfavourable pathways more than the one you want it to go down (it’s v complicated!) So Dim apparently would help to rectify both of those things.
But I also have issues with phase 2 dangermouse, which im trying to support with B vits (especially folate) zinc and magnesium. But that’s what I was concerned about that I might get a back up of oestrogen.
So when you said it would take two days to detox and then you felt good again, would that cycle then repeat itself again and again when you took Dim daily?
I’ve had the severe nausea migraines too and think my issues began approx 8 years ago too! I can get palpitations and my histamine issues are worse when oestrogen is present and out of balance. These can range from nausea, migraines to anxiety, jittery feelings, brain fog. Progesterone calms histamine which makes sense with you getting less allergic reactions.
You read that so many women swear by progesterone cream but so many are quick to discredit it completely. X
So when I first started DIM I took every day and the headache etc cleared after a few days. After a few months I started getting the dry eyes and constipation so stopped. More recently I had one DIM (Nutri) a week and that seemed to keep me balanced. However, the blurry vision (which will be from the liver dump) really affects me being able to work properly so have taken a break and returned to the progesterone as low dose.
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I did try that but as with most herbs I got a migraine - I get it with most that dilate blood vessels so I avoid herbs now.
Did you end up having the oestrogen test (can't remember the name) where you take lots of samples in a short space of time?
Progesterone sometimes, like DIM, throws out too much oestrogen for me too (and was too hard to deal with in peri). There's also all the oestrogen that sits in our tissues that increases in menopause but my surging is now less frequent so it is easier to deal with.
What did you do in peri, dangermouse when things were more unpredictable?
I had quite a rough time and lost 2 stone in 2 months as I felt travel sick even watching movement on the TV and so couldn't face food at all. The Brevinor combined pill (that had taken when younger) stopped all the nausea after a week but then it all started breaking through gradually over the year. Similar with the prog cream so I eventually stopped everything and waited it out, using those travel wrist bands to drive to work and get through the day. Then I'd have the odd day when I felt better and then they increased. I vaguely remember trying DIM back then and it causing me to immediately throw up so I avoided it but now realise it may have helped if I had persevered. Who knows?!
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With regards to unopposed oestrogen, I do believe that progesterone (and testosterone if low) are needed for proper sex hormone balance, beyond womb protection, which is just one organ after all.
A friend is taking Sandrena alone as has no womb and she has become very fearful of everything and a little withdrawn.
Whether any decent research will ever be done on natural progesterone is questionable as oestrogen is big business but I think some doctors are starting to question the high dose oestrogen that Newson seems to push.
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I did try that but as with most herbs I got a migraine - I get it with most that dilate blood vessels so I avoid herbs now.
Did you end up having the oestrogen test (can't remember the name) where you take lots of samples in a short space of time?
Progesterone sometimes, like DIM, throws out too much oestrogen for me too (and was too hard to deal with in peri). There's also all the oestrogen that sits in our tissues that increases in menopause but my surging is now less frequent so it is easier to deal with.
What did you do in peri, dangermouse when things were more unpredictable?
I had quite a rough time and lost 2 stone in 2 months as I felt travel sick even watching movement on the TV and so couldn't face food at all. The Brevinor combined pill (that had taken when younger) stopped all the nausea after a week but then it all started breaking through gradually over the year. Similar with the prog cream so I eventually stopped everything and waited it out, using those travel wrist bands to drive to work and get through the day. Then I'd have the odd day when I felt better and then they increased. I vaguely remember trying DIM back then and it causing me to immediately throw up so I avoided it but now realise it may have helped if I had persevered. Who knows?!
They sound like difficult side effects from the dim and during perimeno, dangermouse. I’m so glad you’ve come through it.
I’m three days into dim. Just the headache so far, maybe a bit of nausea but I often feel nauseous these last few months so who knows. I’ll see how it goes.
When I get the progesterone cream, which should be any day from tomorrow, do people know what may happen if I use it every day of my cycle? I know we only have progesterone after ovulation normally but I struggle with the unopposed oestrogen in the first part of my cycle too, so feel I’d benefit from it but not sure if it would mess things up? I guess I have the Mirena giving me synthetic progesterone, albeit a tiny amount, every day of my cycle x
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This is such a shame. We are being let down by the lack of 'evidence' here in the UK.
Scampi - you know your issues are caused by high/surging estrogen. I know mine are, Dangermouse knows hers are.
It's so sad there is no support for us. Balance is very much key here. We need prog to balance our surging estrogen in peri... And beyond, as Dangermouse is finding out. It's heavily documented that progesterone goes south well before estrogen - so I don't get the thinking in the UK.
I also don't get why they'd want to throw more estrogen at us... Which is what they do here. Surely that's downright dangerous?!
I had a medichecks capillary blood test done a few weeks ago. They asked what I wanted to find out, I said I was checking my state of estrogen dominance - I then got a lecture from medichecks (whom I was paying) that estrogen dominance doesn't exist, according to the nice guidelines. Right. It just exists outside of the UK then. ;D
I'm not new to this... I've been battling this for 5 years. I have estrogen dominance, beyond doubt!
Scampi, you know my experience with prog cream - good brands are not 'very weak'. I experienced real changes, as does Dangermouse. Mary uses bespoke progesterone and keeps her uterine lining thin. These are real hormones. With power. Hurdity does have a point about the receptors and the progesterone /progestin competing. But give it a go?! We all respond differently.
I tried every combined pill under the sun over the course of a year... And, whilst some brought some symptom relief, they all brought new symptoms. There are a few threads about combined pills for peri on MM. That's it. That's all the NHS meno clinic could offer me. Very sad and disappointing.
At least we can talk about it and share experiences here. Xx
Thanks Crispy :-*
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Dangermouse, Mary G and others - did the progesterone cream help with the feelings of physical anxiety? Sure I remembered someone saying it did! X
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For the sake of clarity, I should mention that I have been using Darstin since July. It's a branded progesterone gel that I buy in Spain and it works very well indeed. Not only do I achieve good blood levels of progesterone, it works well on the womb lining and I'm below the 5mm danger line for a continuous combined HRT regime. I use one pump of Oestrogel and 50mg of progesterone gel every day.
The bespoke progesterone was excellent but it was impossible for the pharmacy to post to Spain due to Brexit and that is why I made the switch.
Just like the bespoke progesterone, I have not experienced any side effects with the Darstin gel and would go as far as to say I find it calming and therapeutic.
Scampidoodle, I'm not as knowledgeable on oestrogen dominance as dangermouse and Crispy but it's worth bearing in mind that progesterone tanks before oestrogen when you hit the menopause and this is the time when a lot of women develop anxiety, panic attacks, insomnia and in my case, migraines. I don't think that's a coincidence.
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Thanks Mary. The availability of hormonal goods seems so much better in Spain than here.
I’m prone to migraines and now anxiety and bouts of insomnia so all seems to correlate.
I’ve also developed really really painful boobs these last few months, no idea what that is. Is that high oestrogen?
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Scampidoodle, I agree, think there is a definite link there. Progesterone aids sleep and is a calming hormone.
As far as I know, breast pain is mostly caused by genetic hormone instability, high oestrogen and synthetic progesterone - I developed breast pain with the Mirena coil. I was told by my gynaecologist that oestrogen dominance in perimenopause can cause breast cysts which is why they are so common. My progesterone gel is used to relieve breast pain amongst other things.
I would definitely try the progesterone cream.
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Brilliant thread!
Thank you lovely ladies for challenging the norm and keeping us informed throughout your journeys
M x
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Welcome Marchlove - we have to stick together and support each other don’t we! X
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Scampidoodle, I agree, think there is a definite link there. Progesterone aids sleep and is a calming hormone.
As far as I know, breast pain is mostly caused by genetic hormone instability, high oestrogen and synthetic progesterone - I developed breast pain with the Mirena coil. I was told by my gynaecologist that oestrogen dominance in perimenopause can cause breast cysts which is why they are so common. My progesterone gel is used to relieve breast pain amongst other things.
I would definitely try the progesterone cream.
Interesting re the breast pain Mary. I’ve never had it in my life until the last couple of months. It was easing and then I had covid just before Christmas and it seemed to ramp up pre period again and hasn’t gone away yet. Very uncomfortable.
I’ll eagerly await the arrival of my biovea and hope for the best! Will report back of course.
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I had lots of breast cysts during peri and I had to have a biopsy as they couldn't drain one of them (but turned out ok) and they asked me if I was taking oestrogen (which I wasn't) as they obviously saw it as a high oestrogen state.
Yes, progesterone can relive physical anxiety when it's caused by high oestrogen which is a stimulant. It can also cause bursts of anxiety though when oestrogen is displaced from the tissues and re absorbed as it travels through the intestines. Many a time I had instant relief after a bowel movement!
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I do remember when the Mirena ‘worked’ for me last time I felt instant relief the afternoon after it was inserted. Like a whole body effect and the overriding feeling was that I felt really calm and was a nicer person.
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Yes it's not until the prog hits you that you realise how wound up you've been! The couple of occasions I have tried oestrogen I have ended up having a row with my partner as I wouldn't back down about something and nothing. You don't realise at the time though as you are so determined to win the argument - which isn't me at all, I can't even enjoy watching sport as I don't have the competitive gene! It reminds me a bit of when a family member has been on SSRIs and became very argumentative so there could be a serotonin connection to too much oestrogen.
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While reading up on migraines, depression and the ramifications of menopausal hormonal instability this quote jumped off the page for me:
The same hormones that control your menstrual cycle also influence serotonin, a brain chemical that promotes feelings of well-being and happiness. When hormone levels drop, serotonin levels also fall, which contributes to increased irritability, anxiety and sadness.
This is the link:
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/can-menopause-cause-depression#:~:text=Hormonal%20Fluctuations&text=The%20same%20hormones%20that%20control,increased%20irritability%2C%20anxiety%20and%20sadness.
I think we are only beginning to scratch the surface on all the different conditions that the menopause can trigger.
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That’s really interesting Mary. I agree we are only beginning to scratch the surface. All we are as humans are genes and hormones and there are so many factors to consider within that.
We’re all so individual and the current medical model of more oestrogen needed just doesn’t fit everyone.
Pmdd can definitely be triggered by fluctuating hormones possibly affecting serotonin.
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Yes it's not until the prog hits you that you realise how wound up you've been! The couple of occasions I have tried oestrogen I have ended up having a row with my partner as I wouldn't back down about something and nothing. You don't realise at the time though as you are so determined to win the argument - which isn't me at all, I can't even enjoy watching sport as I don't have the competitive gene! It reminds me a bit of when a family member has been on SSRIs and became very argumentative so there could be a serotonin connection to too much oestrogen.
This feels so similar to me. I’m not competitive either and have never been irritable. Until this issue started and when my oestrogen is rising or high now I am so irritable with my family and I’m not someone I recognise. I miss feeling calm and nice!
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I got my progesterone levels tested (on day 16 of my current 20 day cycle) and it came out as 1.65nmol/l - totally in the red! The reference range is 13-45.
I did have the Mirena in June which is probably preventing ovulation but my oestrogen is trying I think and causing issues.
Maybe the progesterone cream will help then?!
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Scampi, that is a very low, post menopause level.
Just to give you an idea of the blood levels that can be achieved with transdermal progesterone @50mg every day, these are my blood results from a few weeks ago:
4.57 ng/mL which (in your money!) is 14.53 nmol.
If I don't use any progesterone at all, my base level of progesterone is:
0.60 ng/mL which is 2.00 nmol.
Bear in mind, I'm 61 and 15 years post menopause.
Back in 2007 when I was 45 and first post menopause, my progesterone level was:
0.50 ng/mL which is1.59 nmol.
My baseline progesterone levels have not changed much throughout the years as you can see but since using both the bespoke progesterone and the Darstin progesterone gel, you can see that my levels have risen significantly so you can probably achieve something similar with the cream.
I hope that gives you some idea of what to expect.
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Mary - how do you test?? When I was trying prog cream my serum never seemed to increase. I tried capillary blood (finger ****) last month and got a much higher level.
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Crispy, they are just standard blood tests which I obtain from the health clinic I use in Spain.
When I get a slip for a blood test from a doctor, there is a tick box form (which I have photocopied!) with the slip and I just tick all the appropriate (extra!) boxes.
What is particularly useful is having possession of all my records/results going back years.meaning I can refer back to make comparisons.
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Thanks Mary - is it a proper draw from your arm??? Or finger ****?
Cream is renowned for not showing in serum (arm) ... Which I think must've been the case with me as it never increased.
I'll stick with the finger **** now for consistency. Plus, I can buy it myself.
Yip, I think it's great to be able to compare over time and at certain times when symptoms are high. That time in Sept when my E was 2089. I nearly passed out that day!!! Was good to understand what was wrong!
Sounds great that u can get a, blood test shopping list :)
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Crispy, it's a blood draw from the arm taken about 12 hours after applying the progesterone.
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I just check my NHS app and my last prog result taken (blood from arm) in Aug 2021 was 0.3 nmol when not on any prog.
It went very high when I was on prog cream (90.1)!
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It is bizarre. Mine reached a heady 5.5 nmol in Sept on 340mg prog cream - at which point that same cream pushed my estrogen to a ridiculous 2089.
Wo see why my serum never shows increased prog?!
Now, on nothing I was 32 nmol prog last month - tested by finger ****.
The other thing I'm thinking is prog cream stopped my ovulation for the most part. So I guess if I ovulated last month coming off - that result is just an ovulation. :o
Mind boggling.
I know I've not ovulated this month on nothing (I've now got some strips) so I think I'll do another test next week. ::)
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Scampi, that is a very low, post menopause level.
Just to give you an idea of the blood levels that can be achieved with transdermal progesterone @50mg every day, these are my blood results from a few weeks ago:
4.57 ng/mL which (in your money!) is 14.53 nmol.
If I don't use any progesterone at all, my base level of progesterone is:
0.60 ng/mL which is 2.00 nmol.
Bear in mind, I'm 61 and 15 years post menopause.
Back in 2007 when I was 45 and first post menopause, my progesterone level was:
0.50 ng/mL which is1.59 nmol.
My baseline progesterone levels have not changed much throughout the years as you can see but since using both the bespoke progesterone and the Darstin progesterone gel, you can see that my levels have risen significantly so you can probably achieve something similar with the cream.
I hope that gives you some idea of what to expect.
That’s really useful, thanks Mary! Isn’t it crazy that some people say the cream doesn’t work and is mega weak as it clearly has an impact.
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It is bizarre. Mine reached a heady 5.5 nmol in Sept on 340mg prog cream - at which point that same cream pushed my estrogen to a ridiculous 2089.
Wo see why my serum never shows increased prog?!
Now, on nothing I was 32 nmol prog last month - tested by finger ****.
The other thing I'm thinking is prog cream stopped my ovulation for the most part. So I guess if I ovulated last month coming off - that result is just an ovulation. :o
Mind boggling.
I know I've not ovulated this month on nothing (I've now got some strips) so I think I'll do another test next week. ::)
It feels like that serum blood test should have shown a lot higher if you were on 340mg of cream! Can’t have been accurate with the serum test as you say.
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Ok so perhaps the progesterone cream used when perimenopausal and still ovulating causes excessive oestrogen to be released to ovulation levels. Maybe this is receptor related where the sudden high levels of progesterone in the blood triggers the reopening of all the dormant oestrogen receptors (that have become dormant in an effort to rebalance the previous chronic low progesterone levels).
Then the high oestrogen release uses up the extra progesterone making that suddenly come down, making the ratios even worse.
Obviously this has no scientific backing, just rationally trying to build an explanation, and would make sense with my experience in peri.
If this was the case, perhaps trying very small amounts of progesterone (around 25mg) could improve things without setting off too many alarms?
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Thanks Dangermouse.
Certainly sounds like what happened to me. I've read recently that prolactin is a better measure of real E level as it goes up when E is high (often in tissues and not measurable). My prolactin is high.
Noone in the UK believes prog can trigger this estrogen release, including my private bhrt clinic!!! But it's a well known phenomenon in the US.
I did work out, after 12 months of trying, that my dose is 25mg compounded cream. But, to be honest, I think I'm better on nothing than the cream right now.
I think it's something I should keep ready to use when my own E buggers off. In fact, I think some woman use it post meno so they can actually release that extra estrogen.
So, for the time being, I'm trying agnus castus.
That said, I've spoken to scampi and I think she should give the prog cream a try. Plenty don't seem to have the experience you and I had Dangermouse. It's all trial unfortunately.
I think, to add to your theory - I was taking bio clear estro for 6 weeks, which tanked my estrogen. I felt better, but it also gave me severe gastritis (that I'm still battling now). So I know it's all my E/P balance.
I've learnt a lot in the last 12 months - mostly how little we know in the UK ;D
Scampi - I am wondering if your prog level is so low because of the mirena?! The progestin is meant to replace your progesterone, but progestin won't show in bloods... I don't think.
Anyway, there was a lady on our previous thread who took progesterone cream alongside the mini pill I think. She found it worked. Definitely worth a try for you.
Xx
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Thanks dangermouse for that explanation that sounds very logical and is likely what would happen with larger doses of progesterone.
Crispy, you’re right, been doing some research and your own progesterone levels switch off when you have the Mirena and you just use the progestin released from the Mirena. Which falls over time so by 5 years the levels are half that than they started at. Maybe why some ladies need an earlier change.
So, god knows why the Mirena has helped me previously. Maybe my E levels are far far higher than they were before so the balance is off. Either way, supplementing with progesterone does seem like it might help and as dangermouse says, a small dose may help. I’m still waiting for it, this biovea takes a good while doesn’t it!!
The logical thing must sound like I should remove my Mirena but I’d fear a big crash if I did as had one since 2018.
Interesting as crispy says that hellosam666 used the cream with the progesterone only pill. That must be the same situation as me really.
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Hi Scampidoodle, Crispy Chick :) Just a note first, i did cancel my membership of the forum but do look on now and again. And the reason i cancelled was primarily because i didn't feel the forum catered in most part for people like me who decided against NHS prescribed menopause medication and used alternative solutions. For many ladies who mentioned using or wanting more info on OTC or privately prescribed creams, the inevitable message back from more seasoned posters is "progesterone cream is not potent enough to make a difference, it's a scam" or "don't use anything not accredited by the NHS / Menopause Society".
As you know from my own messages from this board, I have had enormous success from using these creams. I use Biovea Progesterone Cream and Life-Flo Biestro cream (mix of Estradiol & Estriol). They stopped my migraines, improved my mood, stopped the dryness and gave back the person i used to be before all this started. And the good thing about creams is that you can taper them to your needs - a little less or more if you feel you need it. A huge amount of this forum is dedicated to ladies with dreadful side effects of prescribed HRT and having to chop and change medication to get the right balance. I tried prescribed HRT briefly and felt absolutely awful and i do believe it was too much progesterone & estrogen for my body even though it was the lowest prescribed patch / tablets.
Scampidoodle - just to let you know, i do still take the mini pill along with the creams each day. It's a winning combo for me. I'm scared of stopping the mini pill whilst all has been working well and like you with the coil, worried it would make things worse.
Sam
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Welcome back Sam. I missed you :-*
So glad to hear things are good for you. Xxx
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Thank you Crispy Chick and that's really kind of you. Thank you :) :) xx
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Hellosam666, welcome back from me too. I completely understand where you are coming from and if you read my long running thread on this section on compounded hormones, you will know exactly what I mean.
It's so very wrong that you felt you were unable to share your knowledge and experience with alternative therapies on MM because all experiences have equal value and you should never feel that anyone is judging you on here.
I hope you will feel comfortable on here this time around and I look forward to hearing more about your HRT regime.
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Thank you very much Mary. And I should have acknowledged in my first post how enlightening it was to read all your posts originally when i first started out on my personal battle with menopausal symptoms - i spent a long time searching on this forum for advice on alternatives to NHS prescriptions.
It was nice to see my name mentioned by Crispy Chick whilst browsing the site today and it made me think for a moment; there will be women coming to the site looking for info/advice on different options from the standard HRT to tackle symptoms and our experience of alternative medication is and should be absolutely valid. Perhaps i was a little hasty in unsubscribing ;)
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Yes we need to have more accounts of the success of progesterone therapy and creams otherwise people assume the party line that it's not effective. Great to hear it's worked for you!
There's a medical book that someone (can't remember who, sorry!) recommended on here (who then had to remove the name of it :() which talks about therapeutic hormone dosing for doctors. It's much safer and, in my experience, much more effective.
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Totally agree ladies. I want to discuss both the alternative bhrt options AND estrogen dominance.
To have so little discussion of these issues on this wonderful forum, makes you feel abnormal and seek support elsewhere - for me, a bhrt clinic and a US Facebook site!
I'd rather chat openly with women going through similar in the UK. You few ladies on this alternative section have given me great support over the last 12 months. But there are so few of us discussing it. Such a shame.
For anyone it might help, from my own personal experience of having tried progesterone in many forms over the last 12 months I can say, beyond doubt, I'll never be able to take utrogestan. I was conked out comatosed by day 4.
Beyond doubt, compounded bhrt progesterone products are the real deal. The lozenge was far too strong for me. The cream was good. I tried an 'over the counter' (Internet purchase) prog cream and, whilst it certainly affected my hormones, I dont feel it was either as strong as my compounded, or absorption was a lot less.
Now I'm trying agnus castus - but again, noone seems to be out there ???
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Thank you Dangermouse, it would be great to see that book but alas we'll never know the title.
Crispy Chick, when i briefly tried HRT, the Utrogestan completely debilitated me - think it was only a week i tried it for. Basically, this huge dark cloud came over me, I was crying, couldn't think straight. Awful time and I certainly wasn't going to wait the designated "3 months" to see how things pan out.
I think it's such a shame that women come on this forum to ask about alternative medications are told they don't work and that's that. A good example is "Poppytoast" this week on the "all things menopause" section. Hurdity advised her not to waste her money on these products and so the conversation is shut down. Perhaps Poppytoast should have posted on this section instead ;-).
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When I get the progesterone cream, which should be any day from tomorrow, do people know what may happen if I use it every day of my cycle? I know we only have progesterone after ovulation normally but I struggle with the unopposed oestrogen in the first part of my cycle too, so feel I’d benefit from it but not sure if it would mess things up? I guess I have the Mirena giving me synthetic progesterone, albeit a tiny amount, every day of my cycle x
Hi Scampidoodle
OTC progesterone cream is very weak and as such it won't do you any harm because otherwise it would have to be regulated and licensed etc as per pharmaceutical products.
However as mentioned in my previous post, because you already have the Mirena, and the progestogen is absorbed systemically (it is more than a minute amount - it is just minute by comparison with oral intake of the same hormone when used as a contraceptive pill), it may well have not effect at all.
By all means - and as women on this thread are doing - use trial and error to see what works for you, but for me, I go by research evidence as a starting point - to guide as to what is most likely to be effective at a time of fluctuating hormones.
In terms of NICE Guidelines and HRT in fact peri-menopause is defined as starting when the cycle varies by at least 7 days each month - even though hormones will start to go awry before that, and so it is at THAT point that HRT is recommended. Yes some women who have lower oestrogen are recommended HRT before this point - but it won't necessarily work as it is not indicated. As for the higher and higher dose of oestrogen - I don't agree (and have never agreed) with that either - not as a blanket response to menopausal issues - apart from the documented research by the late Prof Studd, on reproductive depression.
Personally I would still prefer to suggest one of the more natural contraceptive pills such as Qlaira or Zoely to regulate the cycle than trying all these other expensive products and undergoing costly tests for progesterone - which to my mind (the tests) are unnecessary and inaccurate - except as a way of determining if ovulation is taking place in women who are trying to conceive.
Scamipdoodle - somewhere back on this thread, you mentioned reacting to the hormones in contraceptive pills but these would have been (probably!) the very strong synthetic oestrogen used in some pills and perhaps the earlier generation progestogens. Qlaira and Zoely use estradiol - bioidentical oestrogen, and newer generation progestogens so may well work for you?
Hurdity x
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Well Girls - I am impressed with the knowledge and experiences shared :thankyou: :foryou:
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Hurdity
Have you ever tried progesterone cream? How do you know otc is very weak???
I have. Both compounded and over the counter and have reported back with real life experience.
Whilst I respect your decision to only follow the research evidence (because it works for you. Lucky you!), for many of us, this hasn't worked. I think you'll find this is nearly always the starting point. So it's following that that we look to different avenues.
I politely request you let us discuss these alternatives without keep repeating your disbelief in them.
We are here to help each other. Let's keep talking ladies. :-*
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And this is why I got so frustrated with the forum.
Hurdity, we all know our own bodies and what has worked and what hasn't worked, my goodness we're old enough. As Crispy Chick just said and many others have already said, countless times before, prescribed HRT hasn't worked (despite trying various options). And therefore other solutions are sought. Isn't that a good thing?
This forum is (or at least I thought when first joining) was for all viewpoints and recommendations. It is not for any one member to give her own opinions as gospel truth and to discredit other peoples ideas and suggestions.
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Thank you Crispy, well said.
Progesterone cream/gel whether compounded or branded very definitely work 100% and I have evidence with blood tests and uterine scans. I carry out my own studies and trials.
There are women on MM using so called approved forms of progesterone who have reported womb lining measurements higher than mine ie over the 5mm danger line.
Careful everyone, we don't want this thread shut down as others have been in the past.
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This forum is (or at least I thought when first joining) was for all viewpoints and recommendations. It is not for any one member to give her own opinions as gospel truth and to discredit other peoples ideas and suggestions.
I agree, all experiences and opinions have equal value and one member should not be allowed to close down alternative debate.
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Agree Mary G we don’t want this discussion shut down. It’s so informative!!
Welcome back HelloSam666! Thanks for coming back and contributing that’s fantastic.
Do you mind me asking if you are peri or post meno etc? So you’re on the mini pill and Progesterone and Estrogen creams. Interesting!
How much progesterone cream do you use? I’ve ordered biovea one. And do you use it through your cycle or at different times? I guess if you’re on the mini pill you may not have a cycle I guess?
I’m still waiting for it so I’m trying Dim at 100mg in the meantime. I’m on day 7 now. Migraine for first 3/4 days then ok. Feel brighter in mood and a little better but then I do have some good days.
As soon as the biovea arrives I’m going to try a small amount. It’s 20mg a pump so maybe half a pump if that works.
I agree it’s so important to have this alternative debate and this is the alternatives section after all. The US, Australia and other countries in Europe are far more clued up on hormones than here.
I’ve seen countless different people about the same problems for years now and tried every standard med/pill/gel etc etc. the reason I do a deep dive into genetics/estrogen pathways/creams etc is because mainstream medicine has failed me and there’s just more to it for some people. People are lucky if hrt just works - I’m jealous!
Let’s continue the conversation as we’re really helping each other here and have living proof from several on this thread that alternative methods are completely viable and can be life changing xxx
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When I get the progesterone cream, which should be any day from tomorrow, do people know what may happen if I use it every day of my cycle? I know we only have progesterone after ovulation normally but I struggle with the unopposed oestrogen in the first part of my cycle too, so feel I’d benefit from it but not sure if it would mess things up? I guess I have the Mirena giving me synthetic progesterone, albeit a tiny amount, every day of my cycle x
Hi Scampidoodle
OTC progesterone cream is very weak and as such it won't do you any harm because otherwise it would have to be regulated and licensed etc as per pharmaceutical products.
However as mentioned in my previous post, because you already have the Mirena, and the progestogen is absorbed systemically (it is more than a minute amount - it is just minute by comparison with oral intake of the same hormone when used as a contraceptive pill), it may well have not effect at all.
By all means - and as women on this thread are doing - use trial and error to see what works for you, but for me, I go by research evidence as a starting point - to guide as to what is most likely to be effective at a time of fluctuating hormones.
In terms of NICE Guidelines and HRT in fact peri-menopause is defined as starting when the cycle varies by at least 7 days each month - even though hormones will start to go awry before that, and so it is at THAT point that HRT is recommended. Yes some women who have lower oestrogen are recommended HRT before this point - but it won't necessarily work as it is not indicated. As for the higher and higher dose of oestrogen - I don't agree (and have never agreed) with that either - not as a blanket response to menopausal issues - apart from the documented research by the late Prof Studd, on reproductive depression.
Personally I would still prefer to suggest one of the more natural contraceptive pills such as Qlaira or Zoely to regulate the cycle than trying all these other expensive products and undergoing costly tests for progesterone - which to my mind (the tests) are unnecessary and inaccurate - except as a way of determining if ovulation is taking place in women who are trying to conceive.
Scamipdoodle - somewhere back on this thread, you mentioned reacting to the hormones in contraceptive pills but these would have been (probably!) the very strong synthetic oestrogen used in some pills and perhaps the earlier generation progestogens. Qlaira and Zoely use estradiol - bioidentical oestrogen, and newer generation progestogens so may well work for you?
Hurdity x
Hurdity, unfortunately I’ve tried several pills over the years. Oral intake of hormonal drugs really doesn’t go well for me and the synthetic hormones flare everything up and affect my mood. Large doses of most things do. It was a surprise to me that the Mirena helped but maybe it was the local route and that it’s not ingested.
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Hi Scampidoodle and thank you :).
To be honest, i don't know where i am on menopause as i don't have periods on the mini pill - which has been like that for years since i've been taking the pill. I have at times been tempted to stop taking it just to see what happens with my periods but in the end I think, don't rock the boat is things are all okay.
I use the Biovea progesterone cream and sometimes if i'm running low when ordering the estrogen cream from iHerb, i'll put an order in for the NOW brand progesterone cream. They're both exactly the same, i find no difference. And actually iHerb delivery (from USA) to UK a lot faster than Biovea - i usually receive a parcel within 5 days and by ordering 2 products, get free delivery.
And i agree with your comments about other countries being more clued up than us. They're way more flexible on different approaches and i do wonder if the BMS are not up to date in their thinking. My GP was more than happy to let me use the OTC products.
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Just to add re this:
"OTC progesterone cream is very weak and as such it won't do you any harm because otherwise it would have to be regulated and licensed etc as per pharmaceutical products."
That would only apply to oestrogen which can cause cells to grow if not reigned in by progesterone. Natural progesterone is not dangerous or been found to cause any health issues, so it does not come under the same list that oestrogen does in what can legally be sold without a prescription. The oestrogen creams sold online are very weak for this reason but can be enough of a therapeutic dose for some women.
I tried the Zoely pill and it made me feel awful due to the progestogen (artificial progesterone) contained in it but understand it may suit some women so always worth a try.
We have to remember that the drug companies behind the licensed oestrogen industry have a vested interest in keeping alternatives off the shelves - the more effective they are, the bigger the fight and the US FDA are currently trying to get unlicensed natural progesterone banned. A lot is being swept under the carpet about the safety of high dose oestrogen but doctors in the UK are starting to speak out and, even at the Newson Clinic, a doctor has recently written in an article that high dose oestrogen can be a risk to heart health. She said it is only protective when you are young (and, of course producing high amounts of progesterone).
At the end of the day, it's all about balance.
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Thank you Dangermouse.
And interestingly, i see on this forum, people on really high doses of oestrogen and others encouraged to use higher doses than they're using in order to alleviate symptoms. Is this right? And of course, the more oestrogen being prescribed, the higher the dose of progesterone.
My OTC creams are obviously a lower level than many of the HRT preparations and probably why they work well for me i.e. my hormones needed tweaking to alleviate the symptoms i had.
Call me cynical but I have been pondering for a long time about the connection between pharma companies / NHS contracts / BMS with regards to menopausal products. It's the same with many other natural products / supplements that get really great feedback from the public but are written off by the governing bodies / pharma companies as useless / not potent enough to make a difference.
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I totally agree re big pharma it’s big business and political and run by very powerful people. I have had similar thoughts.
How much do you use of the biovea Sam? And so you use daily? X
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And I agree re the messaging on this forum for higher oestrogen needed. This is what got me into this pickle, seeing a private meno specialist who advised me to up from 2 to 3 pumps of gel when I was already feeling utterly dreadful. Totally tipped me over going to three. Oestrogen is treated like a benign supplement which can only bring good things but it’s clearly not going to all the time.
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Hi Scampidoodle, i use 1 full pump in the evening - i think that equates to 20mcg. I take 1 pump of oestrogen cream i buy too in the evening at the same time.
I use them every night - don't have a break and all has been great on that regime x
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Fabulous, thankyou. I’m so glad this works well for you and well done you for trying other avenues for your well-being. What symptoms did you have pre using these things that the cream then helped with? X
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My initial problems - which prompted me to see a private menopause doctor first, were migraines which were becoming nearly daily and really bad insomnia - i felt like a zombie. And as i mentioned, the HRT i was prescribed (25mcg estrogen patches and 100mg utrogestan) made me feel very ill.
Later on, after taking the progesterone successfully for a few months, i started having hot sweats some nights. They weren't too bad, primarily on my neck/chest but i figured out from my own research that a bit of oestrogen was needed and that's when i bought Estriol cream by Biovea. I since changed to the Life-flo brand (this has a little bit of Estradiol in it as well as Estriol). It means i use just one pump of this at night instead of a dose in the morning and one at night as with the Biovea.
BTW when initially starting with the progesterone cream, it suggests using a dose in the morning and evening. This is what i did and then moved to just one in the evening.
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Hi All
It was me who posted about the medical book.
Can someone confirm, am I allowed or not to post the title of the book?
If not, does anyone know why not?
Welcome back HelloSam :)
M x
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I thought it might've been you March. Was it Jim's book? ;D
I cannot see why there would possibly be a problem recommending a book?! After all, we all recommend herbs and hormones. ;)
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I think we don't want to give an excuse to close down this thread but thank you for the book recommendation!
I remember the title was changed to some random, generic menopause book. ;D
There are strange things like this on Facebook. If anyone uses the full word 'progesterone' the thread gets closed so they have to write 'pr@gesterone' etc. These drug companies have more power than we realise.
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That’s crazy re the forums closing down for using the P word!! Intrigued about the book..
Thanks for the info Sam re dosages etc x
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Yep Crispy! It’s Jim@P’s book 8)
xx
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aoletti
I feel a bit like Sherlock!
x
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I feel like I need to hide my copy under the bed now. 8)
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You’re a scream Dangermouse!
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"In terms of NICE Guidelines and HRT in fact peri-menopause is defined as starting when the cycle varies by at least 7 days each month - even though hormones will start to go awry before that, and so it is at THAT point that HRT is recommended. Yes some women who have lower oestrogen are recommended HRT before this point - but it won't necessarily work as it is not indicated."
Can't work out how to properly do a quote, but just want to add - because I think it's very important - that both my private menopause specialist and my NHS Menopause specialist confirmed to me when I asked them this question that many women who are still having regular periods can and do require HRT and that it is often very successful. This is because (in their words) Estrogen can begin to fall (or go haywire) quite some time before your periods become erratic. It seems some women are more sensitive to that change in Estrogen than others, which I can only assume is why some people experience symptoms earlier on and some don't until the point that their Estrogen is so low / have less eggs that their periods become erratic.
I think it's important that we don't state things as gospel truth when there is much debate on all kinds of meno topics, even among menopause specialists. I personally suffered a year of absolute hell as a result of GPs robotically stating the above the quote to me and refusing to prescribe me HRT because my periods were still regular. When I finally paid to see a menopause specialist who informed me they were wrong and did prescribe me HRT, my problems disappeared within a couple of weeks of starting it. I am nearly not here today because of that failure and mis-information, so it feels important for me to share it.
Good luck to the ladies on this thread in finding something that works for you :love:
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Excellent point Gilla.
From the other perspective, I would also add that many of us in peri are offered hrt before our periods go haywire - but it is actually the nosedive in progesterone leading to our symptoms. So 'conventional' hrt adds more estrogen to our already normal or surging estrogen = hell. The only alternative is just leave us be and invest time and money investigating every hormonal issue in isolation, not accepting they are hormonal.
Just because something hasn't been researched in the UK, doesn't make it unreal.
So so very frustrating. My symptoms are real. Let me tell you. 5 years of hell and absolutely no help whatsoever from Nice guidelines and the NHS. But that's OK, I'm at peace with that now. They can't invest in research for everything.
But, please please let me discuss this with other woman in either a similar position, or using alternative medicine that may help me. That, for me, is what this forum is all about.
If there are any ladies out there trying bespoke products, alternative products, new ways of taking mainstream products (I at one point squeezed some utrogestan out using a kebab skewer), please join the chat and share your experiences. We so so value them. Xxx
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Thank you for your support Gilla999.
What a journey you had to find someone who was able to help eventually. It's worrying that there is so much conflicting information and that the experts who's help we seek can be so rigid in their knowledge and advice. Each and everyone of us are unique with menopause and need to have a regime that works for us individually irrespective what the guidelines state.
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Thank you Sam - I think the key is every woman's experience is different and as you say should be treated on an individual basis!
Crispy, I would like to add - and this now IS me purely hypothesising ....
... my first "symptoms" started in 2018 aged 39, where for two years like clockwork from day 14 till my period I had the most horrendous swollen, painful boobs. Like carrying around two water melons. My cycles had also shortened from 33 to 27/28 days. The boob thing was so bad that I got a private hormone test which showed that during my luteal phase my E was going sky high - way over the limit. I wasn't offered any help with this and no one explained to me that soaring Estrogen and/or falling Progesterone are often the earliest signs of Peri (as discussed in multiple scientific studies). After 2 years of experiencing that my E began to slowly climb back down from its super high level (again, proved by blood tests and matching with symptom pattern) and that was when I immediately began suffering from horrendous low E symptoms, even though my E level was still relatively medium. But it was the climb high Estrogsn dominance to "medium/low Estrogen" that caused my symptoms. I hypothesise that had I have been offered Progesterone only in the luteal phase of my cycle during this first time frame (therefore removing the crazy high Estrogen dominance exposure that my brain had for 2 years) that the ensuing gradual climb down of E would not have been so problematic for me. Because my brain would not have been exposed to such high unopposed levels for two years. It's well spoken about between meno specialists (Lara Briden, Marian Gluck etc) that Progesterone only treatment can be very useful at the start of Peri, so not a total radical theory of mine! So I totally agree with you Crispy that for many women it is not necessarily that Estrogen HRT is the saviour for all - there is so much variance and in my case too I feel that earlier on would have benefitted from other treatment.
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Very informative. Thanks, Gilla.
Gosh, I'd never thought about my body getting used to these extremes and then behaving more extremely when my own E finally drops. I'm glad I'm not just sitting still accepting this is my fate until that happens then. What you say makes sense.
My period of low P and normal E seems to be lasting a very long time ::)
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How long has it been Crispy? It was a little over 2 years for me.
BTW I'm not suggesting that what happened to me might be the same for all - it does seem as if some women are just more sensitive to changes in E and I appear to be one of the lucky chosen ones ;D
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5 years. On the nose. Although I was suffering severe pms before that - which I'm led to believe is low prog.
I think for me, it's not high E, never has been. It's just very very low P. That said, in trying the prog cream it seemed to release hidden estrogen from my tissues, so I must be pretty well endowed with E overall - just not always circulating.
I did tank my Estrogen 2 months ago on a detox herbal mix (as proven by my Dutch) and, without a doubt, the results weren't all pleasant and that's what triggered this severe bout of gastritis I'm still battling.
Now I think I'm back yo my normal, so I'm testing on day 21ish to see.
So I think you might be onto something. We're meant to gradually lose our hormones, probably in sequence. Personally, and this is just my view, i think years on the pill are to blame for a lot of my imbalance. I won't have been making prog during all those cycles. :'(
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It's well spoken about between meno specialists (Lara Briden, Marian Gluck etc) that Progesterone only treatment can be very useful at the start of Peri, so not a total radical theory of mine!
Actually Gilla999, in some ways this is this is why i ended up taking progesterone cream. Initially i was given a standard HRT prescription from the menopause specialist but I felt absolutely awful. After much research on my part, i took the plunge and starting using a progesterone cream. This sorted all my issues and in particular the debilitating migraines and insomnia along with my mood. This worked well for quite a while. And it's only since i started getting some night sweats that i bought a cream with estriol in which sorted that out. Progesterone was key for me at the start of my menopause journey.
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Very interesting Sam - it's what I really feel would have helped me in the early days too, and prevented such extreme problems with Estrogen so "early" afterwards. Maybe in the future there will be more research and awareness into the benefits of Progesterone earlier on and also - crucially - the balance between E and P. People like Lara Briden, Marian Gluck and my meno specialist Dr Susie Rockwell are starting to talk about it, but still a way to go!
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Thanks Gilla, that is very interesting.
I agree that tanking progesterone (which is the hormone that diminishes first) has a profound effect on women in perimenopause causing panic attacks, anxiety, insomnia, nausea, migraines and much more. This is what many refer to as oestrogen dominance.
I really don't like the rigidity of many of the NHS guidelines or the dogma and zero tolerance of different HRT products. I think the NHS guidelines need to be reviewed and in many cases changed but they are in crisis right now and don't have the bandwidth.
I too hope others with non standard regimes join us on here.
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Definitely agree, the more people who post who respond who have had success by not using the ‘more estrogen’ model the better as it just doesn’t suit everyone.
Thanks Gilla for your posts it makes total sense to me and I agree progesterone May have helped you initially.
I’m still going ok on the Dim, I’m unsure if I’m just having a good run but my mood feels better and I just feel a bit more positive and I’m in climbing estrogen phase getting ready for ovulation. I ate too many high histamine foods yesterday and got a migraine but that’s my fault.
I was reading up on dim and it says it’s a really potent anti inflammatory and also helps neuro inflammation. Wonder if that’s why I feel brighter?
Still undecided whether what I need to do is manage my oestrogen via the use of dim or just use the progesterone cream with no dim. We’ll see. Chaser biovea as it left the states on 1st jan and no sign yet!
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MaryG just to say I totally agree: tanking Prog could very well often be the reason behind what people term as Estrogen dominance (except in cases such as PCOS). My Estrogen was very high - something like 4 times over the top of the luteal range - but I still think it's possible that I've always had high E (I have high SHBG) and as we say it was actually the declining Progesterone that caused the issues for me at that early stage.
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But, just to muddy the waters ladies, and unfortunately highlight that is still not always that simple - That's me tried prog only for 12 months and, without shadow of a doubt, it increased my estrogen. :(
The theory being, from some experts in the States - that it can release estrogen that has retreated into tissues. Or maybe it was converting. Whatever mechanism, it happened and I've had a terrible year. (and try discussing that phenomenon with a UK doctor ;D ;D ;D ;D)
And without testing, I'd not have had a clue.
Marion gluck told me last Nov that my E was normal and my P rock bottom - take some progesterone. It sounded so simple. I was so excited. Nothing is simple in this hormonal game. :(
It clearly works for some though. So I do urge people to try themselves. But...if its making you feel worse, don't continue for as long as I did thinking it'll get better.
This is all about personal balance. I think I will try prog again in future, probably when my own E drops, as it can then go about releasing that hidden E cause I'll bloody well need it then ;D
Scampi - I'm quite exited to hear how the dim continues for you. When I took it, i was also taking the P cream - so no idea what was what, so although it's a pain that it's not arrived yet, it is best to try one new thing at a time - so it's forcing you to do just that ;D.
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This is true crispy, I’m definitely one for trying multiple things in desperation then not knowing what’s what!
I agree it’s important messaging that if something is making you feel horrendous, trust your own judgement and maybe think about coming off it instead of persevering. Unless it’s a completely common reaction (ie my awful migraine when starting dim)
I’ve had gynaes (nhs and private and private meno specialists) encourage me to plough on with meds or hormones when actually they were doing me harm. I feel able to advocate for myself now but only as I’ve been through that.
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So just to update. Day 14 of Dim and day 13 of my cycle. For about the last week or so I’ve felt a lot more like me. More balanced I guess. Less anxious for sure. No hot flushes or nausea or breast pain.
I’m going to see how my pre period goes. I’ve been taking 100mg in the morning with food. I have missed a couple of days with just forgetting but noticed no difference those days.
Does anyone know if dim builds up in your system? Or is it flushed out regularly.
My biovea cream arrived finally! Haven’t written that off at all I just wanted to see how the dim went for a full cycle first. I don’t want to jinx things but so far I’m far better than pre dim xx
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Hi Scampidoodle, that is good news & sounds promising with the Dim. I tried that once, early last year but had the most blinding headache with it, like crushing on my skull. Didn't take anymore until a few weeks later and thought I would give it one more chance but had the same experience. Bizarre but we're all different. If you need any more, i can post you the jar!
Good news on the Biovea package arriving, that took a while but it's there if you need it now :)
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Thanks Sam. I’ll keep updating and hopefully it’s useful for people looking these things up!
So the first three or four days of Dim I had a god awful migraine, as you say it was like my skull was being crushed. I do get migraines now and again around my cycle but this was far worse. Then I’ve been fine. Apparently that can happen. Not saying that’s what happened with you but thought id mention.
The first week or so my symptoms were a little worse in general, I’ve read about a detox reaction where all the excess Estrogen gets pulled out of you or something?! So might have been that xx
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That's interesting as i just thought Id had some kind of weird allergic reaction to it. I started having hormonal migraines in my early 30s and used Sumatriptan but they got more frequent around in the last couple of years - which i assume is my hormones being all over the place. Progesterone cream stopped them pretty much completely.
I'll hold onto the Dim then and if things start getting bumpy on my current regime i'll maybe give them another shot but prepare myself for a few days of head pain ;D
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That's excellent news scampi. So chuffed for you that something is working.
I'm not sure many on here use dim (most are trying to add estrogen, not reduce it ;D) but it's well talked about in other places. I'm in a fb group for ED. I'll have a search.
That's me nearing my first proper month on nothing. I've learnt a lot. But I did a blood test, so I'll await those results before I update.
I say nothing, but I'm 2 weeks into the Agnus castus. But that's a slow working herb and I'm 99.9% sure it's not doing anything yet.
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Sam - I tried dim last Feb when trying prog cream. I didn't feel good at all, nut don't know which was responsible. I stopped the dim after 10 days.
But, just to say I got the initial 3 day relentless headache too. It's well known for it. They say its the detox ???
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One more thought. You're both on progestin - but different delivery types.
I'm pretty sure mirena just adds in progestin, but the mini pill adds in prigestin but also keeps your estrogen low. So I'm not sure DIM the best idea in mini pill... But i might be wrong. X
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Thanks Crispy, i was just sat a my laptop pondering this whilst doing a quick search again about DIM. Perhaps it is best for me to steer clear at moment as the estriol cream i also started taking took away the night sweats i was getting now and again. I guess these are due to low oestrogen so i don't want to take something that will negate the positive effects it gives ;-).
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I would agree Sam. You’re onto a good thing at the mo so I guess you don’t want to rock the boat. Some say Dim lowers overall estrogen levels and some say it doesn’t. I think the key is it stops your progesterone and testosterone being ‘stolen’ to make more estrogen and then further down the chain it encourages your estrogen down a more favourable pathway. So I guess your estrogen does lower a bit as your progesterone and testosterone aren’t contributing to it. But it’s essentially as it should be. (I don’t even know if that makes sense! ;D )
I’m definitely not averse to trying the P cream in addition
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Thanks Scampi and yes, that's essentially what i thought it did, hence buying it i.e. balancing out things. I read on some of the forums online that it can help enormously for some but i guess it depends where you are with hormone changes.
Girls, I'll not rock the boat otherwise I could be back on this forum with other problems to deal with ;D ;D ;D
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Sam, if I was in your boat, and God, I wish I was... I wouldn't rock it. ;D ;D
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And, lots on the fb group taking DIM. Plenty find it lowers estrogen. Perhaps it's individual.
Just remember what happened to my estrogen on the oestro clear though - although I did feel better for it.
It's that balance ladies. Gotta find that balance.
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Keep us updated in the agnus castus crispy. X
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I'm going to do an update post, since I've found it useful looking back over my own posts from last year.
So, I stopped both the progesterone and bio clear oestro due to the extreme reflux /gastritis. That's still ongoing. :(
Since stopping. I had an OK week or so through Xmas (thank god) but then last week I descended into horrific pms. Like truely horrific. Mood swngs, extreme emotion, daily migraines and an inability to deal with life, never mind stresses. It was awful. So I was very grateful for my period to arrive after only 21 days.
I used ovulation strips last month. No ovulation. Which corresponds to low prog and pms and short luteal phase.
Roll on my period I thought. But no. Now day 3 of my cycle and I am back to square 1. I feel dire. My extreme estrogenic symptoms - this time with no prog to help, as last month was annovulatory. Motion sickness and nausea and grumpy. Looking back these were all things I suffered from in follicular from day 2 originally and then they increased in severity when I began prog..
So. I can conclude that adding progesterone definitely improved my mood, pms and migraines, but for me it did increase my estrogen causing further imbalance in follicular phase.
So now I'm back at the start. I'm on day 19 of agnus castus. It's not doing anything as yet, but it's a slow acting herb. I'm so praying that it helps me ovulate and start making a decent dose of my own prog. I'm still damn sure that's all I need.
Its going to be a long week... :'(
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It sounds grim crispy. So sorry to hear.
Your symptoms sound familiar to mine in that I was getting terrible nausea and emotional. All felt very unpredictable. As you know this has improved with the Dim so it does sound like you have zero Progesterone and rising estrogen at this point in your cycle. I remember feeling really poorly with motion sickness travelling to relatives over Christmas.
I hope the agnus castus works for you this month. I don’t know enough about it to advise. But I know you’ve tried progesterone routes already x
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Thanks scampi.
I don't know either, and it's so hard going through this whilst I 'wait and see'.
However, it is the thing that worked amazingly well for me 5 years ago. First hand positive experience. Although back then I only had terrible pms... Not this huge imbalance feeling in follicular phase.
I'm taking the same brand, but half the dose since it didn't end well for me.
Yip. Motion sickness. That's where I'm at today. It is very very grim. But I guess I need to give the AC time...! When it works it should increase my LH and prog. I guess I can't expect that to happen until nearer mid cycle. ☹️. Its so tempting to double my dose, big I want a long term outcome so I'm trying to play the low and slow game.
Torturous.
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And I'm truly amazed and pleased for you at your response to the DIM.
I certainly never got there in the 10 days I tried it. In fact, I felt worse. But I was trying prog at the same time. It's also well known to make you worse if you detox but recirculate the estrogen instead of expelling - so maybe I'm in that camp ???
So pleased for you. Xxx
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I guess it was hard to know what was impacting you, the dim or the progesterone. Definitely you need to make sure your phase 2 detox pathways are ok prior to trying. I know mine were very bad through genetic tests. So I have been taking magnesium, b complex, folate for months now and it seems to be helping as I don’t appear to be suffering from recirculating oestrogen.
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I have some DIM capsules but I dare not try them in case they set off my silent migraines. I'm not sure if they will be beneficial now I'm settled on an HRT regime. I bought them when I was having a rough patch with migraines but the amitriptyline has made a massive difference.
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Hi Mary, I guess if you don’t feel you need it theres no need at present. Always one to keep in the cupboard I guess! Glad the Ami has made a difference, plenty use it for various things don’t they x
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Thanks Scampi I think you are right and yes, amitriptyline is an old but good medication that relieves pain, insomnia, IBS-D and migraines at a low dose. I would definitely recommend it.
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Hi ladies,
So I’m pre period I think?! Since Monday I’ve had some nausea, tiredness and today a migraine lingering. These are symptoms I have gotten for months now but they’re normally through the month. Now I’m on the dim they’re pre period.
I seem to have been good on the dim from day 5 to day 16 of my cycle. I started dim on day 1 of my cycle and the first few days were taken up with the terrible start up migraine and some nausea.
I know it’s working to detox or balance my estrogen as I’ve felt sooo much better. But now I need some tweaking or something.
The problem is I have zero progesterone of my own as I’m on the Mirena. My estrogen levels are pretty stable and average. So logic dictates I should boost my progesterone? But the dim clearly helps. I’m currently taking it every other day at 100mg as was feeling a bit of laxity (down there!) when taking daily which appears to be resolving.
Any ideas lovely ladies? Xx
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Just to add my cycle is anywhere from 17-20 days since I had my Mirena replaced in July. And I’m on day 19 today. Things started changing on day 17 of my cycle.
I guess I have a really short luteal phase. I believe I’m ovulating as I have very cyclical symptoms but I have no progesterone of my own confirmed by tests and I think this is because the Mirena takes over so your body relies on the progestin released.
My cycle used to be every 24/25 days before July.
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Just to add my cycle is anywhere from 17-20 days since I had my Mirena replaced in July. And I’m on day 19 today. Things started changing on day 17 of my cycle.
I guess I have a really short luteal phase. I believe I’m ovulating as I have very cyclical symptoms but I have no progesterone of my own confirmed by tests and I think this is because the Mirena takes over so your body relies on the progestin released.
My cycle used to be every 24/25 days before July.
Hi Scampidoodle
If you are ovulating then you will be producing progesterone as part of your cycle as normal. The Mirena coil partly suppresses ovulation according to the product info.
Hurdity x
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Wow there has been a lot written in this thread since I last looked....rather than quote indidivual posts I'd just like to make a few points.
There was talk way back about "gospel truth" and how we are individuals, know our own bodies and work things out by trial and error.
First - Science and medicine do not operate in terms of "gospel truth" or "belief"- that lies in the realm of religion or superstition - just through research, trials, evidence, conclusions and then a decision on what might works depending on the outcome of all of that. It has to be the starting point of everything we take - from paracetamol, to cancer treatments, to HRT. Trial and error may come into it but only from the baseline of research to determine efficacy ( whether something works or not during trials) and safety. So in terms of pain relief - some prefer paracetamol, some ibuprofen, some aspirin etc but all have been approved re safety (more or less) and efficacy - but they won't all work for everyone. Same with HRT. So yes there is trial and error, but if it is not based on research that demonstrates some efficacy - then you are more likely to be wasting your money.
Second there was talk about Big Pharma. Of course Big Pharma wants to make money - but they will make money producing whetever is shown to work and gets licensed, whether it is oestrogen, progesterone etc. There are plenty of progesterone products produced by Big Pharma. If prog cream was shown to be efficacious then surely Big Pharma would be producing it - as there would be money to be made? Similarly all the "alternative" products are equally produced by big companies also making huge amounts of money prducing products based sometimes on spurious claims or misleading claims. Oestrogen dominance is a great theory for selling progesterone creams.
There seems to be two different points of view on here re oestrogen, HRT and peri-menopause - some disapproving of the urging of (mainly private) doctors that increasing oestrogen is almost always the answer to all their symptoms , and others saying that taking oestrogen as part of HRT before peri-menopause officially starts is the answer for many women. Of course both can be effective but neither universal. Some women will benefit from increasing oestrogen, and some women will benefit from starting HRT before cycles begin to go awry - as I said in an earlier post on this thread.
I agree that the rigidity of some in the medical profession is unhelpful - we see that regularly on this forum - and this is sadly due to ignorance.
There has been mention of decreasing progesterone causing menopausal symptoms. As I'm sure everyone knows, progesterone is not produced during anovulatory cycles and oestrogen fluctuates dramatically during peri-menoause. These are two separate things though in terms of symptoms. Lack of progesterone due to lack of ovulation can cause the womb lining to thicken and then cause the irregular heavy bleeding during peri-menopause. Yes progesterone can regulate this - but to regulate the cycle as it does as part of HRT. In fact some women are prescribed progestogens including progesterone during the second half of the month to ensure regulation of bleeding and the cycle. OTC progesterone cream is not strong enough to do this.
The way I see it, rather than taking all these additional products, if women are young enough, one of the pills like Qlaira or Zoely would perform the same function - the cycle would be regulated, and oestrogen would be stable, so the extreme undesirable symptoms due to hormonal fluctuations would be alleviated.
Somewhere in the thread someone mentioned about progesterone being needed by the body other than for reproduction. Yes this is true, and we continue to produce throughout our lives - but it is only produced in large amounts for reproduction which is why it was given the name progesterone. When it declines due to decline in reproductive function, then it only needs replacing to protect the womb or regulate the cycle as stated above - that's my understanding anyway. I haven't read anything to suggest it serves a therapeutic function to "balance" oestrogen - well I've read stuff talking about this but not trials that show that it works for the majority of women - which is the starting point - but perhaps for a small minority?
Hurdity x
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Just to add my cycle is anywhere from 17-20 days since I had my Mirena replaced in July. And I’m on day 19 today. Things started changing on day 17 of my cycle.
I guess I have a really short luteal phase. I believe I’m ovulating as I have very cyclical symptoms but I have no progesterone of my own confirmed by tests and I think this is because the Mirena takes over so your body relies on the progestin released.
My cycle used to be every 24/25 days before July.
Hi Scampidoodle
If you are ovulating then you will be producing progesterone as part of your cycle as normal. The Mirena coil partly suppresses ovulation according to the product info.
Hurdity x
I’ve read about the progestin kind of switching off your own progesterone production so it relies on the progestin. Hence my blood tests all showing zero progesterone in me.
When you say partly suppresses ovulation do you mean it does sometimes and not others?
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I suspect you're not ovulating scampi. When I was on cerazette I didn't ovulate, neither did I get periods, but latterly my pms was horrific - so I was clearly still cycling but had no real progesterone.
They give woman suffering from pms and pmdd bio identical progesterone - cyclogest. All researched and tested and everything ;) and that's not to protect the endometrium, so it's been proven to have wider benefits.
Since stopping progesterone cream last month my pms has been horrific. So that makes sense!
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I still have ‘periods’ on the Mirena but the really short luteal phase really makes me wonder.
Agree on progesterone cream. Even if it is a minority it works for, it’s still a huge number out of all the women in the world. I’ve read lots about women who have had hysterectomies that don’t need progesterone anymore but actually benefit from it. With all this it’s just not a one size fits all. Xx
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I completely agree re the benefits of progesterone, it's a calming hormone that helps with mood, sleep and anxiety.
At the right dose (and transdermally in my opinion) progesterone is your best friend at the wrong dose, it's your worst enemy!
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Hurdity, irrespective of your strong views on this subject of progesterone creams, unless you have actually tried it yourself to alleviate symptoms then i simply cannot take any instruction or advice from you on what the best course of action is. It's as simple as that and i hope anyone reading this thread are not discouraged from trying various products in order to help them in their menopausal journey.
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Progesterone cream has slowly but surely saved me. I cannot say more than that.
Purely anecdotal of course, but no scientific paper from a double blinded, peer reviewed study is ever is going to take that away from me.
Mx
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Ooh please tell us more Marchlove! (If you’d like to of course) X
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Just that really Scampi!
I was hugely progesterone intolerant to the extent I thought I would have to give up on HRT completely.
It was progesterone Cream that has enabled me to slowly build up a tolerance to progesterone and to start to feel it’s beneficial properties. This has taken me a year so far and going forward I feel hopeful that my health will improve even more.
x
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Have I imagined this but did you have histamine symptoms or we had some similar genetic issues ie comt or MTFHR - apologies if I’m totally wrong!
So did progesterone bring particular benefits for you or relief from certain symptoms or is it that you needed a progesterone as you’re on oestrogen hrt and you find you tolerate the cream? X
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Yes histamine and genetic issues, both comt and MTHFR. These genetic issues are relatively common so I think that anyone who has a problem tolerating hrt probably has them.
Yes, I do take a low dose oestrogen and the only progesterone I can tolerate is the cream. Started off on a very low dose and gradually increased.
The main benefit I find from the progesterone cream is for mood but also my histamine problems are way way better. x
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I thought so. I’m sure we chatted on a thread about this a while back but couldn’t find it. My genetics show my histamine processing is bang on. However the comt and MTFHR throw it all off and obviously the impact on oestrogen processing causes my histamine issues. Hence why going onto three pumps of oestrogel absolutely killed me and was the beginning of trying to figure this all out.
I’m not on any oestrogen and i just take lots of supplements to support the genetic stuff (b vitamins, folate, magnesium, vitamin d, c etc) I do take antihistamines too as I just have to currently.
I started taking dim 100mg a day a month ago and this have dampened down histamine wise a lot but not enough. Also my estrogen levels aren’t mega high. I’m 43 but the last 6 years my levels have been pretty stable really. Range from 79 - 450pmol. I guess my backed up oestrogen keeps this higher in my body I don’t know?!
Anyway I can tell the dim has lowered my estrogen for various reasons but it has also helped my histamine. But it feels I’d be better upping my progesterone rather than lowering my estrogen.
Any thoughts on this Marchlove? Also can you say what dose progesterone cream you started on and what you’re up to now? Any side effects? Xx
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I found I couldn’t tolerate Dim at all. Probably because I’m post menopause and my estrogen levels are pretty low and I prefer it that way.
I started with about 10mg of progesterone cream and am now taking 25mg. Regular scans of course.
The side effects were nothing like when I was taking Utrogestan but nausea was an issue for quite awhile.
It’s good that your taking the supplements. Zinc and selenium might be a good thing to add to help support your thyroid going forward.
I also can’t tolerate folate so I take follinic acid instead which I’m fine with.
I think trying to introduce some progesterone cream would indeed be a good step for you going forward.
M x
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Thanks that’s really helpful. How long did you get the nausea for?
I have some cream (now brand) and I’m just finishing a cycle now so will try adding in the luteal phase next month.
The whole histamine thing complicates things as in normal circumstances I would probably only want to take the cream in luteal phase to mimic what my body wants to do. But with histamine I would need it in the first half too (the rising estrogen is a killer) But I’m unclear as to whether taking it continuously would mess up my cycle?
Thanks for the recommendations for the genetic snps. I do take zinc actually I forgot that! I’ll look for selenium though, would Brazil nuts do it or not enough?!
Really pleased you found a routine that works well for you! X
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Hi
Reading this with interest. And other threads regarding prog and histamine.
I had hysterectomy and I’m on estrogen my estrogen blood levels are around 400 from two tests. I’m with the Newson clinic. The Utrogestan gives me small hives itchy skin and red wheels on legs after 21 days at 100mg a day. Split into 50mg twice a days. I stopped it. Had another go about 10 days later split further using soft gel capsules and jewellery scales. So 50mg a day The things we do
This made me very depressed. Very bad thoughts.
The estrogen level I’m at is just controlling my symptoms so can’t afford it to drop. I have quite sore boobs with it and the worst thing is the histamine intolerance. I am current eating hardly anything. Eg this morning was 10h rice. This afternoon an eggg yolk tonight I’m trying a very very small piece of fresh steak. I take DAO tablets. Vit c and others justo keep vitamins etc up. I have lost over 4 kg and now weight under 46kg
I was always someone who never put weight on so had nothing g to loose.
I am very very scared. Does anyone think the cream might help with the two intolerance to it that I have. I feel I have very little time left to play about with this before I become and emmegency.It has all been to late in finding a diagnosis from the first symptoms of estrogen intolerance and I blame myself for not going private sooner. Although the dr at Newson isn’t very close up on HIT
Was wondering where Gilla999 was getting her medication from. The last thread I read was Gilla was on Omalizumab. I feel so desperate 😢😢😢😭
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Scampi- I’m not sure it it would mess up your cycle, you could perhaps try taking just a small amount in the follicular phase and then increase during the luteal.
I wouldn’t recommend Brazil nuts as I’ve read that the amount of selenium can vary greatly, with some being way too high! If you supplement don’t take more than 200mcg and always take in the morning.
Ali P - I’m so sorry to hear that you’re struggling and from experience I know how frightening it can be to be underweight. It might be a good idea if your able, to move to another clinic who can give you more bespoke treatment. If you PM me I can recommend someone.
Yes, I do think progesterone cream could help with your intolerance but it would be great if you could have someone to guide you with it all.
M x
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Thanks Marchlove - I’ll avoid the Brazil’s! And yes this next cycle will be progesterone cream trials. I think some peri women do take it every day and some don’t and some say it would prevent ovulation. As I say the histamine kind of makes me a different case with different needs.
Ali P - I will message you details of someone too if helpful. Sorry to hear you’re struggling. It does sound like the estrogen is impacting your histamine a lot but you can’t reduce the estrogen. There are other things that can help xx
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I’ve read about the progestin kind of switching off your own progesterone production so it relies on the progestin. Hence my blood tests all showing zero progesterone in me.
When you say partly suppresses ovulation do you mean it does sometimes and not others?
Hi Scampidoodle
The answer is I don't know! Just read the product info which does not go into details with data:
" The contraceptive mechanism of action of Mirena is based on mainly hormonal effects producing the following changes:
- Prevention of proliferation of the endometrium
- Thickening of the cervical mucus thus inhibiting the passage of sperm
- Suppression of ovulation in some women. "
https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/1132/smpc#gref
What you have read sounds reasonable - because, if the Mirena suppresses ovulation (or if you are post-menopausal and don't ovulate) then progesterone will appear as almost zero - it is only produced in large amounts as part of ovulation and in pregnancy, and blood tests are designed to measure these larger amounts (for fertility reasons) - therefore progesterone levels will be barely detectable when post-menopausal, or during the first part of the menstrual cycle. Rest assured you will still be producing it as part of your normal metabolic processes - just not in large amounts as you need to prepare for pregnancy.
Hurdity x
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Hurdity, irrespective of your strong views on this subject of progesterone creams, unless you have actually tried it yourself to alleviate symptoms then i simply cannot take any instruction or advice from you on what the best course of action is. It's as simple as that and i hope anyone reading this thread are not discouraged from trying various products in order to help them in their menopausal journey.
Hi HelloSam
I wouldn't dream of "instructing" anyone what their best course of action was, (except very occasionally for ther own safety - sometimes women have been given dangerous advice by their doctors for example)!
In many areas of life people offer opinions and advice based on knowledge and experience - male doctors and gynaecologists for example will never experience menopause but advise on HRT products, therapists will advise and help people but won't necessarily have suffered trauma. Those of us who offer advice on HRT products on this forum, have not necessarily tried them all - but we've read about them, and share that with others who may not have done so. Women are regularly advised to seek medical opinion.
This is a free and open forum and wonderful that it continues to be so where everyone is free to give their opinion, experience, knowledge or advice as asked or even if not asked (provided they do so respecting the rules of the forum and BNBR).
No amount of anecdotal evidence can replace evidence based research - and even then, won't tell anyone how they will be affected individually, though the research evidence is the best starting point. It is how all medicine operates as I said in my previous post.
Maybe the effect is placebo - and placebo can have a positive and powerful effect - and there is nothing wrong with that but it is still important for women to be as well-informed as they can be in order to make the right decision for themselves, and I also "hope anyone reading this thread" is able to do that, without necessarily having to spend large amounts of money on a possibly fruitless direction. Of course I wish everyone well on their menopause journey - that is taken as read!
Scampidoodle - it is very doubtful that there is sufficient progesterone in cream to prevent ovulation?
Hurdity x
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Hurdity
I wouldn't dream of "instructing" anyone what their best course of action was, (except very occasionally for ther own safety Are you a qualified medical doctor, consultant or nurse? My own GP and my next door neighbour (a female GP) have discussed the creams i use to alleviate the symptoms i was having. Both are in agreement that the creams i use have stopped the need for other medication i was initially prescribed for migraines, insomnia, mood etc.
This is a free and open forum and wonderful that it continues to be so where everyone is free to give their opinion, experience, knowledge or advice as asked or even if not asked (provided they do so respecting the rules of the forum and BNBR). Correct, therefore it is wrong for you or anyone else to suggest that a person discussing a product that works well for them may be a "placebo" is plain wrong and to be honest, an insult to our intelligence.
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I agree hellosam. What gives??? Why the insult about progesterone cream only being capable of placebo?
Maybe try a dab. Then decide. :D
Now, I'm taking a break at the moment, as the prog cream didnt work in the way I wanted, but placebo??? Not a bloody chance. I've also tried utrogestan, as many have. So I can compare.
We're not daft. We know when something is real and when it's fake. Goodness me.
I think the reason male doctors and gynaecologists offer advice is, erm, because they have medical degrees and are qualified in the field.
Keep talking ladies. We need to discuss this. I've thought many a time about leaving this forum because, being in perimenopause, with decent estrogen levels, I've been made to feel stupid for suggesting progesterone decline can actually impact our bodies and minds quite severely. But, for the most part, I benefit from the chat in this alternatives section.
If you dont believe in something, why bother commenting?! ??? Perhaps just give a little thought to how your comments can impact us ladies still striving to find our solution - mental health is a huge part of this meno game! Be kind. Or... Maybe just be quiet :-*
P. S. As point of proof for those poor ladies now confused by this. When I was trialling compounded progesterone cream, I increased my dose quite significantly (and stupidly) to 150mg. Then dropped down to 100mg. Within days, mid cycle, I had a withdrawal bleed (my periods, are regular). There are hormones in these creams!!!!!
P. P. S another edit ;D. At sufficient dose it did stop ovulation in me. Which, is why I think I might be better using only in luteal - if I go back to it.
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Having ‘dabbled’ with progesterone cream it definitely dampened my migraine and nausea symptoms and also the heart palpitations I would wake with.
As way of an update, I stopped the dim as it was reducing my estrogen too much. But I may be going back on it at a lower dose using a liquid version where you can actually take a lower than 100mg dose (thanks crispy!) - hopefully it’ll still help at a low dose.
Speaking to my gynae/histamine consultant on Tuesday so I’m going to talk to her about all things hormone, histamine, dim and progesterone cream!
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Well, my pharmaceutically produced Darstin progesterone gel sure as hell ain't a placebo! I have progesterone blood levels and uterus lining scans to prove it ie below the 5mm danger line for a continuous combined HRT regime.
I agree with Crispy, Scampi and Sam, progesterone deficiency is responsible for many of symptoms during the menopause, not least migraines, anxiety and insomnia. Progesterone is a real life saver for women who are top heavy with oestrogen too.
At the right dose, progesterone is your best friend at the wrong dose, it's your worst enemy.
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Is Darstin only available in Spain, Mary? Really feels like something that we should have over here!
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It's manufactured in Spain Scampi but I'm not sure if it's available in other EU states. It's definitely not available in the UK which is a huge pity because it can be used for breast cysts, PMS and oestrogen dominance.
Darstin is not produced for HRT use but I'm so glad I trialled it because it works with zero side effects.
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Where do you put the gel Mary??? Do you rub it on skin, as you would with a cream???
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Crispy, I rub it into both arms every night. I put the oestrogen gel on my legs every morning. Luckily it dries very quickly.
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Fab. So there you go eh - transdermal progesterone licenced in Spain.
So glad you found it Mary x
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It’s 10mg of progesterone too, that would be so useful over here wouldn’t it.
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That's right Scampi, it's 10mg per measure so I have to use quite a bit to get to 50mg but I don't care because it works very well!
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Hi
Has anyone used the serenity cream? X
Ali p
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I haven’t but it seems like one of the more well known and popular ones. I’ve currently got the Now one just as it was a lot less expensive than biovea
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Hi Ali P, i tried that - it was the one i used first. It was fine, no different to the Now brand or Biovea brand. The only reason i changed was because the product & postage being more expensive than the others and delivery took quite a while. Now brand from iherb is a very good price and delivery is very quick from the USA.
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Hi thanks for these replies
I’ll maybe order some of that.
Fingers crossed it doesn’t cause hives n depression x
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Let us know how you get on Ali.
I’m seeing my consultant tomorrow so I’ll see what she makes of all my ailments!
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Good luck Scampi. Let us know I’m still trying to get an appointment somewhere with anyone who knows about histamine intolerance before I become skeletal
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I rate progesterone cream highly :)
But by trial and error I’ve discovered it has to be at the right dose!!
Low and slow yet again, but persistence pays off I’ve found.
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Can you use quercetin with Vit c. And how much do you use please
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Just for the record, I have tried the Biovea progesterone cream and I think it's just as good as my progesterone gel - I switched to the gel because I can buy it easily here. However, I have not trialled the Biovea cream for long enough to know how effective it would be for keeping the womb lining thin but I certainly didn't have any side effects with it.
At a guess, I would say the cream and the gel are about the same.
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Hi. I don’t need the progesterone
For womb had hysterectomy Estrogen dominance I think 50mg a day was giving me really bad depression and itchy skin. Previously I’d been on 100mg (50 twice a day. This have me hives and red skin. Not really bad but only on it just over two weeks. Didn’t seem to
het the bad depression. Weird! Split capsule using scales and needle.
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Ali you can use quercetin with vitamin C. It’s ok to use quercetin 500mg three times a day.
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Cheers xx
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I think we have to accept that the complexity of hormonal interactions, that can change minute by minute, is beyond the realms of what scientists can manage being able to measure and perform studies on.
This is when trial and error can help as you may just find something that gives an element of control to reduce the volatility that causes symptoms. Then those who have had success with a strategy can pass that on for others to try.
If you stick rigidly to what science can measure and ignore everything else you take the risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I love science but the pandemic showed us how the risk aversive nature of how scientists tried to contain Covid-19 in most countries, versus Sweden's anti-scientific, common sense approach, put those countries at even more risk. Science can only do extremes of black and white, yes and no, positive or negative correlation etc. By ignoring the grey areas it may, for example, cut off too soon at the point where longer use might start to prove effectiveness or ignore infinite factors that may have hampered results.
Absolutely, try for the scientific proven methods first but don't be afraid to try alternatives, as not having gone through expensive trials is not the same as having gone through them and failed or caused harm.
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Hello ladies.
A long time ago I read an article written by the author Jeanette Winterton. She was talking about her menopause and how awful she felt and how pleased she was to find a medic who understood. I remember her saying that progesterone was the calming hormone and thinking that was the opposite of what I believed at the time.
Could it be that for some of us progesterone is our saviour and adding more oestrogen not only fails to resolve our issues but actually makes us worse? Just a thought.
I used to look on a Facebook page for Ulcerative Colitis sufferers and there were many people who were experimenting with treatment and lifestyle changes. Everyone would report their experiences and the founder of the group referred to them as citizen scientists. I think of MM in the same way in that we report our journey and pass on any information that may be helpful to others. Over time solutions to problems will hopefully emerge. Fingers crossed!
Take care ladies.
K.
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dangermouse, I agree, there is no point in overly obsessing about studies and guidelines, it's not all ABC, 123.
It's worth remembering that is was two very badly conducted studies and the individuals associated with them that damned HRT for a number of years and actually caused women a great deal of harm. Think about it, there are women who were subjected to years of misery because they were denied HRT and left with debilitating symptoms on the back of those two destructive studies.
Rags like the Daily Mail constantly get caught out for reporting conflicting studies and in many cases, studies that contradict each other.
In theory, my progesterone gel should not work and my womb lining should be about a metre deep! In reality, it works extremely well and my womb lining is under the 5mm danger line - as we all know, anything over 5mm either immediately post bleed or on a continuous combined regime is considered very high risk.
I would add that private compounding clinics refuse to prescribe to anyone with a measurement over 4mm.
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Can I ask what people’s intolerances to progestins and Utrogestan were.? Please.
Cheers
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Hi Dangermouse, Kathleen, the analogies you gave are so relevant to this scenario and i only wish i could have put into words these explanations in response to the negative posts we've had in this thread.
As a footnote to this, I have a small research agency and we conduct many studies for pharmaceutical clients. Some medication works great for some participants (Citizen Scientists would be a better phrase ;D) but not for others but irrespective of the outcome all views are relevant to the study as its the only way to make progress. I wonder in our lifetime we'll see progesterone cream in varying strengths available in this country by prescription from the local GP. I do hope so.
It's been a joy to chat with like-minded and open-minded ladies here. And to not feel like an oddball and a charlatan by stating that this cream worked well for me ;D
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Hi ladies, just to update I saw my consultant today. I explained all the issues. For context she is a consultant gynae and menopause specialist with a special interest in mast cells, long covid and histamine.
My trials with dim and quashing of symptoms with the prog cream (though I’ve merely dabbled so far not used consistently) prove it’s all hormonally driven.
She has prescribed me the mini pill Norgeston whjch I can try if I want to. It was cheap so I thought she could prescribe then I’ll think about it. Don’t really want to do it unless necessary though.
She said she has absolutely no problem with me using the progesterone cream and that millions use it. She said it’s not high dose and isn’t used here as it doesn’t protect the lining at the doses they recommended ie 20mg but as I’m not using it for that it’s no problem. She asked how much it cost me and then said for that price if it works to go for it.
She offered utrogestan but we agreed it was likely too much for my needs.
X
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🤞for you Scampi. It does sound like you had a product meeting, with your consultant giving green light on cream Can you say who your consultant is?
My GP wants me to come off my hrt I’m really scared but I’m loosing so much weight about a kg a week which I can’t afford I can see where she’s coming from. My meno doctor and her spoke today and memo dr hasn’t encountered as bad a case of histamine intolerance
Not looking forward to it I broke down yesterday and rang 111 so they got in touch with my GP. I was in quite a state. Bit scared but we'll see what happens She was quite assertive that this was going to happen and she won’t prescribe me anymore estrogen . Guess I can always try the private route again if it all goes wrong . it’s just the hives and red skin and probable depression from the prog that’s the problem there Sorry for rambling
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Yes it’s Dr Tina Peers, Ali. I think I recommended her to you but she isn’t taking new patients. Remind me what hrt you’re on currently?
Just to say when I’ve been very reactive, I can barely tolerate anything. So be reassured that even if you can’t tolerate things now you may in the future.
Estrogen will definitely be raising your histamine levels.
Are you in any antihistamines or mast cell stabilisers?
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You did sorry Scampi. I do have an appointment with Tina at the end of May so I think I’ll keep it. In case the trial of the estrogen goes horribly wrong. I’m on just a small amount of histamines or it drops my estrogen No mast cell stabilisers. Don’t know who to see about them. I’m only on estrogen at moment prog gives hives and red wheels and itchy
I tried a lower dose and was depressed.
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Hi it’s 100mg patch and it is just controlling my symptoms. Not sure what dose of cream I’d need to use. If I had to go down this route. Sorry it’s me me me at the moment This menopause thing makes me loose empathy. I’m just feeling sorry for myself tonight. This has never been me. I dearly hope all you lovely ladies get sorted. 🙁
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You did sorry Scampi. I do have an appointment with Tina at the end of May so I think I’ll keep it. In case the trial of the estrogen goes horribly wrong. I’m on just a small amount of histamines or it drops my estrogen No mast cell stabilisers. Don’t know who to see about them. I’m only on estrogen at moment prog gives hives and red wheels and itchy
I tried a lower dose and was depressed.
Oh yes I remember you saying now. Well I’m glad you got an appt with Tina even though it is in a few months. You coukd try different types of antihistamines as they all affect people very differently and one may work? Quercetin is a natural mast cell stabiliser so good to use that for now.
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Hi it’s 100mg patch and it is just controlling my symptoms. Not sure what dose of cream I’d need to use. If I had to go down this route. Sorry it’s me me me at the moment This menopause thing makes me loose empathy. I’m just feeling sorry for myself tonight. This has never been me. I dearly hope all you lovely ladies get sorted. 🙁
Could you maybe drop the dose of the patch rather than come off all at once?
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Yes. Something to discuss with GP. It’s going to be tough. Going to order the quercetin now xx
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Hi ladies, just to update I saw my consultant today. I explained all the issues. For context she is a consultant gynae and menopause specialist with a special interest in mast cells, long covid and histamine.
My trials with dim and quashing of symptoms with the prog cream (though I’ve merely dabbled so far not used consistently) prove it’s all hormonally driven.
She has prescribed me the mini pill Norgeston whjch I can try if I want to. It was cheap so I thought she could prescribe then I’ll think about it. Don’t really want to do it unless necessary though.
She said she has absolutely no problem with me using the progesterone cream and that millions use it. She said it’s not high dose and isn’t used here as it doesn’t protect the lining at the doses they recommended ie 20mg but as I’m not using it for that it’s no problem. She asked how much it cost me and then said for that price if it works to go for it.
She offered utrogestan but we agreed it was likely too much for my needs.
X
Hi Scampi, thanks so much for the update. I wonder then if your regime could end up being similar to mine i.e. mini pill & progesterone cream. This works well for me but anyway, see how you get on for now :-)
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Thanks Sam. I just need to decide really whether to give the cream a proper go or whether to try the pill! I should know pretty quickly if something is not feeling right.
Just to add although she said it wouldn’t protect the womb lining that’s because we were talking about 20mg/one pump doses. Clearly when you use more like 50mg like Mary does, it certainly does seem to protect the lining.
Interestingly she mentioned a synthetic progesterone that’s available now which is very female friendly that is in 50mg dose and does protect the lining. But she said it’s expensive and it’s from a pharmacy she uses in London. I can’t remember the name of it though. Anyway it’s not an option for me as I don’t need 50mg but does seem to suggest 50mg is enough for hrt purposes?
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Wow, that's so interesting scampi. So a meno specialist told you millions take P cream and its absolutely fine to do so, and actually will possibly work for you???
But 20mg not enough for endometrium protection. As we've all said all along. That's why Mary takes 50mg and utro is min 100mg as lots lost in oral route.
So, I guess, not all research is 'published' public research. Meno specialists will be their own bank of knowledge about what does /doesn't work.
Did she say if there was a difference between OTC P cream and compounded??? X
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She didn’t mention the difference between compounded and over the counter ones. She just said compounded is very expensive and she didn’t actually mention it at all as an option it was me who asked.
So I tried the pill for two days. Dire. Flared my histamines and felt dead inside. So last night back into P cream and did a full pump. Slept like a log. If anyone needs this for sleep it’s worth a go as honestly I slept deeply. I was a
Tad groggy this morning but in a nice way. I’ll carry on with a consistent one pump a night for a while. Feel a lot better today but time will tell if it’s just. ‘Good day’ etc. will keep you posted x
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Can I ask if any of you ladies on the cream or have used the cream, got dizziness? I’m on 3rd day of one pump before bed. Helps in lots of ways but I do feel dizzy and groggy in the morning. Went for a walk this morning and felt quite unbalanced xx
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Hi Scampi, not with the cream although coincidentally i had a dizzy problem a couple of weeks ago. When i jumped out of bed one particular morning i was staggering around, very scary and i wondered what the hell was happening. I rang the doctors and was able to go see them next day. It turned out to be a problem relating my ear. I'd had a blocked ear on and off for around 3 wks which was particularly blocked after exercise. Apparently it can happen after a cold / flu or infection. It's steadily getting better now and had no more dizziness.
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Funny you should say that as I had a short lived cold around a week and a half ago and got over it pretty quickly but I’ve had loads of congestion since, in my nose. Bit of pressure around my nose area. My ears don’t feel blocked though. Either way, maybe it’s down to this. I’ve just been to the pharmacy to get some decongestant to see if it will help. It’s most unnerving. Made me feel very vulnerable when out this morning! Of course having had so many unsuccessful trials of medications, I’m so conscious of when things go wrong. Was worried it was the cream. I’ll take these meds and see if it helps x
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Hi Scampi, i said to the GP, i never suffer with sinus or problems with my ears but she said that it's not always noticeable immediately when you've had a cold or virus. The only thing i noticed was one of my ears felt a bit 'full' & it was a bit tender above my cheekbones. I had to hold my nose and blow - like you do on a plane with air pressure. She said a decongestant would help or using steam in bowl with a towel over. And also to get out of bed a bit more slowly or if bending down not get up too fast. It's getting better & i hope yours does too!
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Thanks Sam! :)
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Hi. Could it be a bit of low blood pressure x
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Hi ladies,
hope I can intrude!
following thread with interest.
I started my own on here regarding biovea estriol cream, but now I'm wondering whether I'd benefit from the biovea progesterone as well (or instead??).
It's basically for mood and general menopause rubbish!! anxiety, depression, no energy, no sleep blah blah- so bored of these symptoms
I don't have a womb which was why i hadnt considered the progesterone cream but i'm wondering if it's worth taking anyway
i absolutely do not get on with any of the conventional progs including utrogestan- this is why i had hysterectomy in first place! so it seems a bit ironic that i'm now asking about prog cream but there we are
just stopped estradot patch as feeling terrible- only 25mcg but my tolerance is so low
i'm 51
so it's back to the drawing board and i havent the energy to try any of the conventional stuff- i've done it all pretty much.
do women often take only prog cream or is it both prog and estriol? really like to hear experiences. obviously i can leave out the prog if i want
thanks for any help
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also i dont have ovaries so prob benefit from estriol too
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Hi vintage.
I'm terns of what 'most' woman take, those on this forum are very heavily shewed towards conventional hrt. Our NHS dies not support prog only.
However, in other countries there is a lot more recognition of the fact that prog declines first in peri.
I myself have been to a bhrt clinic for help - I was recommended prog only.
All that said, you're post meno, so your needs, are not the same as mine.
My advice would be - if you've exhausted all conventional hrt avenues. Try the creams. Try just estrogen, try just prog. Try both. Without a need for uterus protection, you can go for it.
Certainly in all my readings, many woman feel better with a little progesterone fur balance.
Good luck. Let us know how you get on.
P. S I've tried both compounded and available online progesterone creams. They 100% contain active hormones. Absorption of cream can be an issue and I found the compounded much stronger as I suspect i absorbed more.
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Hi Vintage,
progesterone cream (from Biovea or the NOW brand from iHerb) worked brilliantly for me for quite a while on it's own. It balanced out the symptoms i was having and made me feel so much better. I started having some night sweats later on and turned to the Estriol cream which sorted that out but now use Lifeflo Biestro cream instead, it's better value as you don't need as much. It contains Estriol & a small amount of Estradiol and with that and the progesterone cream i am sorted.
Like you i had tried conventional HRT and it nearly sent me off the rails, i felt awful both physically and mentally. Admittedly i only tried one version of patches & utrogeston but i was too frightened to start experimenting with different types in case i had the same experience.
As Crispy says it can't hurt to try adding in progesterone and I've read so many times that even if you don't have ovaries, progesterone still balances out overall symptoms and wellbeing.
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thank you so much, Crispy and Sam :)
CrispyChick-
yes, I'm lucky that I can play around with stuff without having the worry of womb protection. I will try prog and estriol separately- not sure which order yet- leaning towards prof first- and keep this board posted
It actually might be good for me that the online prog creams are possibly weaker- I'm super-sensitive to tiny changes so absorption doesn't seem to
be an issue for me
I'll definitely keep this board updated, thank you
HelloSam666-
thanks so much for the info on the various creams- I'm so happy to hear that they've worked for you. yes, I have wasted so much of my life trialling stuff that makes me feel awful- I'm actually better on nothing but that's not to say that I'm good on nothing- it's just less awful!
Can I ask, were you post meno when you first tried the prog only?
My feeling is that I'll try the prog first and see how it goes then maybe add the estriol.
Is the consensus that prog only can be ok for bones, libido, mood etc etc
I'd prob ask for bone scans further down the line if I did do prog only and I guess whether it works on other issues (libido etc) will be self-evident!
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Hi Vintage,
to be honest, i'm not sure where i am on the menopause journey as i still take the mini pill and have had no periods for years. With my age, i must be menopausal but who knows.
You mention being sensitive to small changes and i think that is exactly the reason why HRT made me feel so bad and why the OTC creams work. Yes, they are probably weaker but my body needed some small tweaks to even things out and make me feel normal again. Even the lowest patch estrogen patch that i trialled was was way too much for my body along with utrogeston at 100mg per night. Sam
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Thanks again, Sam
All very helpful
I've ordered prog and estriol creams and am crossing my fingers!
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I'm feeling impatient! My biovea is going to take at least another week to arrive
Does anyone know if there's an equivalent in the UK- it's the progesterone cream I was keen to start first, estriol later (if at all)
Are they all the same in terms of strength and source (ie yams)?
last night- as a sort of test- I put in some vaginal oestrogen cream (actually estriol), called ovestin. I don't actually have VA but was curious to see what would happen. I definitely feel shabbier and unpleasant this morning- not imagining it!
So, I do seem to be very sensitive to oestrogens- even those that are supposedly localised and even the estriol in ovestin
so no more oestrogens for the moment- I want to start the progesterone cream ASAP!!!!
I do hope you're all doing ok and thanks for any help.
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just to update- I have now ordered a second (hopefully speedier) tube of prog cream
thanks for the heads-up, HelloSam666 :)
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I tried onas.
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Thanks, Crispy- good to know alternatives :)
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I've tried the Biovea progesterone cream and didn't find it made any difference, but I've heard positive things about it.
I still have some Angelique tablets which I tried for a year, I can't reply to personal messages, :( as although I've been reading threads on here for a good few years, I haven't posted very often, so if anyone would like the Angelique to try, if you message with your email address, I'll get back to you. :)
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thanks bunny have replied to you on other thread and will now PM you!
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Hi bunny.
What is angelique??? Is it hrt?
With regards to the prog cream, I found compounded much stronger than 'buy on line' versions. I suspect it's not stronger, but absorption is far superior.
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Hi Crispy,
angeliq is a conventional oral hrt- and one of the few I haven't tried!
But I'm definitely trying the prog and oestrogen (estriol) creams first- they should be here soon.
when you say compounded- is that by private pharmacies? are they different to utrogesten?
hope you don't mind all the questions- I'm trying to get as much info as possible on anything that might help!!
I'm currently on nothing and have no ovaries and feel pretty grim
how are things for you? think you're peri?
Vintage x
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Hi vintage.
Yes, compounded are specialist prescription only via bhrt clinics - at great expense.
The difference between compounded products and utrogestan are they are bespoke - can be tailor made in any strength and a variety of forms E. G cream, lozenge, pill, pessary. Utrogestan is set doses.
Yes, I'm peri. I'm off all hormones at the moment. Trying vitex agnus castus instead.
It certainly sounds like you could benefit from a bit of progesterone as well as the estrogen xx
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thanks Crispy- I always wondered what it meant!
I hope the agnus castus works for you x
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Hello everyone-
I just wanted to document that I started prog cream today (the Now one- thanks hellosam!)- I'm still waiting for biovea creams to arrive from the States
I can definitely feel something- I know that sounds ludicrous but I am incredibly sensitive to any hrt!
To be honest I feel a bit overwhelmed, foggy headed with a mix of anxiety- obvs not what I want eventually but waaaay to early to judge.
What I can say is that categorically is that it's not snake oil- there's definitely prog in this!
I've ordered the Dr Lee book though I think he or she writes specifically about prog therapy alone which may or may not be what I do- I have no ovaries so just zero oestrogen/prog and testosterone of my own
One thing I have done is order Dr Berg's cortisol/adrenal herbal remedy. It popped up while I was looking at prog creams and I thought I'd give it a try. I tend to feel v anxious on hormonal meds and wondered if this would mitigate that.
Has anyone tried this? I might start a new thread on it as don't want to derail this but hope you don't mind me asking for now.
Anyway- hope you're all doing well x
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Hi Scampidoodle, Crispy Chick :) Just a note first, i did cancel my membership of the forum but do look on now and again. And the reason i cancelled was primarily because i didn't feel the forum catered in most part for people like me who decided against NHS prescribed menopause medication and used alternative solutions. For many ladies who mentioned using or wanting more info on OTC or privately prescribed creams, the inevitable message back from more seasoned posters is "progesterone cream is not potent enough to make a difference, it's a scam" or "don't use anything not accredited by the NHS / Menopause Society".
As you know from my own messages from this board, I have had enormous success from using these creams. I use Biovea Progesterone Cream and Life-Flo Biestro cream (mix of Estradiol & Estriol). They stopped my migraines, improved my mood, stopped the dryness and gave back the person i used to be before all this started. And the good thing about creams is that you can taper them to your needs - a little less or more if you feel you need it. A huge amount of this forum is dedicated to ladies with dreadful side effects of prescribed HRT and having to chop and change medication to get the right balance. I tried prescribed HRT briefly and felt absolutely awful and i do believe it was too much progesterone & estrogen for my body even though it was the lowest prescribed patch / tablets.
Scampidoodle - just to let you know, i do still take the mini pill along with the creams each day. It's a winning combo for me. I'm scared of stopping the mini pill whilst all has been working well and like you with the coil, worried it would make things worse.
Sam
Hi Sam - I believe that the NHS prescribed body-identical hormones are not ‘bad’ in themselves, rather it’s the relative proportions they are commonly prescribe to us that causes the issues! We then spend a life time trying to calibrate the dosing but I find this hard since some things don’t lend themselves well to it. Prime example being utrogestan 100mg, where the capsule can’t be cut. Out of interest, how much of the Biovea progesterone cream are you using, as it says 20mg per day? Asking because I’ve decided to add their estriol cream to a very low dose (NHS prescribed) estradiol patch. Waiting for that to arrive but also looking at progesterone options due to little flexibility using utrogestan. x
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Hi Furyan,
I absolutely agree with you in that it's the strength of the products that are causing issues (for me that is & i guess for a lot of women) and if there were were oestrogen and progesterone products available that we could micro dose on, it would be hugely beneficial.
Initially when i started progesterone, i just used 1 pump (20mg) in the evening. Now i use probably just under one pump in the morning (i don't press a full pump) and in the evening i use a full pump along with the Biestro-cream. I don't have any side effects at all and i feel absolutely great on it.
I'm certain that the reason i felt horrendous when trying regular HRT was down to the Utrogestan and that it was way too much for me. I do wonder too if there is any correlation to body size and that one dose does not fit all. I'm 8 stone - should HRT be pro-rata like it is with some other medicines?
Hope that helps Furyan x
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I totally agree with you there Sam.
I know, for example, cerazette (mini pill) is only guaranteed up to a certain weight.
Utrogestan comotosed me by day 5. Now, I wish I was also 8 stone, but unfortunately I have grown a little since having kids - but I'm not big. Never have been. So I too wonder if body weight makes a difference.
Be good to hear how vintage is getting on???
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Hi Furyan,
I absolutely agree with you in that it's the strength of the products that are causing issues (for me that is & i guess for a lot of women) and if there were were oestrogen and progesterone products available that we could micro dose on, it would be hugely beneficial.
Initially when i started progesterone, i just used 1 pump (20mg) in the evening. Now i use probably just under one pump in the morning (i don't press a full pump) and in the evening i use a full pump along with the Biestro-cream. I don't have any side effects at all and i feel absolutely great on it.
I'm certain that the reason i felt horrendous when trying regular HRT was down to the Utrogestan and that it was way too much for me. I do wonder too if there is any correlation to body size and that one dose does not fit all. I'm 8 stone - should HRT be pro-rata like it is with some other medicines?
Hope that helps Furyan x
That’s really helpful thanks for sharing your dosing Sam! I’ve halved my already small dose patch ready for the estriol to arrive but suspect that taking utrogestan every 3rd day isn’t helping and may be causing a yo-yo effect with progesterone. Either way, I’m still retaining too much fluid so I might order the Biovea progesterone to see if it eases the retention a little. I’ll also book a consultation with the meno clinic to see if there are other ways I can take utro - I’d like to get as much for ‘free’ as possible as buying our own stuff adds up! :-\
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Crispy Chick - i never knew that about Cerazette, interesting and likely adds some weight to our theory. And yes, i had a week on Utrogestan and it was a nightmare. I still remember it vividly and all i had back was 'give it time' - no way!!
Furyan - yes, it does get expensive and i have wondered whether getting Oestrogel or similar from the GP and using the tiniest of doses. But then they'd want me to use Utrogestan. Re buying progesterone cream, i'd suggest getting it from iHerb rather than Biovea. It gets delivered pretty quickly and is cheaper.
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Crispy Chick - i never knew that about Cerazette, interesting and likely adds some weight to our theory. And yes, i had a week on Utrogestan and it was a nightmare. I still remember it vividly and all i had back was 'give it time' - no way!!
Furyan - yes, it does get expensive and i have wondered whether getting Oestrogel or similar from the GP and using the tiniest of doses. But then they'd want me to use Utrogestan. Re buying progesterone cream, i'd suggest getting it from iHerb rather than Biovea. It gets delivered pretty quickly and is cheaper.
Sam - I just ordered the NOW Progesterone from eBay as a seller is in the UK. I’m tempted to give it a try until I can see the clinic (in June!) to find out how I can play with utrogestan. It’s truly a hormonal minefield really…
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yes, of course i should have mentioned - i've bought it from Ebay too, the NOW brand. It's not always available but very convenient when it is. Good luck, i hope it helps a little :)
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I found I couldn’t tolerate Dim at all. Probably because I’m post menopause and my estrogen levels are pretty low and I prefer it that way.
I started with about 10mg of progesterone cream and am now taking 25mg. Regular scans of course.
The side effects were nothing like when I was taking Utrogestan but nausea was an issue for quite awhile.
It’s good that your taking the supplements. Zinc and selenium might be a good thing to add to help support your thyroid going forward.
I also can’t tolerate folate so I take follinic acid instead which I’m fine with.
I think trying to introduce some progesterone cream would indeed be a good step for you going forward.
M x
Hi Marchlove - as recommended by Sam I’ve ordered the NOW progesterone cream and, seeing your post, which progesterone cream are you using? And have you found that the 25mg is enough to keep your lining ok? I assume you’re on estrogen too? Thanks x
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Hi Furyan
Mine is compounded from a private clinic.
Yes it has kept my lining OK so far, but due another scan soon so shall see then.
Yes, I'm on very low dose estrogen.
M x
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Crispy Chick - i never knew that about Cerazette, interesting and likely adds some weight to our theory. And yes, i had a week on Utrogestan and it was a nightmare. I still remember it vividly and all i had back was 'give it time' - no way!!
Furyan - yes, it does get expensive and i have wondered whether getting Oestrogel or similar from the GP and using the tiniest of doses. But then they'd want me to use Utrogestan. Re buying progesterone cream, i'd suggest getting it from iHerb rather than Biovea. It gets delivered pretty quickly and is cheaper.
Sam - sorry I missed your reply here. Re: expenses, it can add up massively for those of us who have to look broader than what the NHS can offer at the moment so it‘s wise to get as much as possible this way if it works. I want to continue using the Evorel 25 patch as it seems to work well so far. I also get Blissel and Tostran on the NHS, which seem to do their jobs - the thing throwing it all out seems to be mainly utrogestan. In my time, I’ve found it only takes ONE hormone to be even slightly out and it’s a world of pain from there! Update: my NOW Progesterone arrived today so I’ll begin tomorrow evening on a pump n take it from there.
Estrogel might be something to consider for you, as you can adjust it to suit your needs x
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Hi Furyan,
i have an appointment on Monday with a female GP who is the go to for menopause at our practice. I'm going to discuss the oestrogel and see what she says. If she does say i have to use Utrogestan no matter how little of the gel i use, then it's a no go.
Whilst i'm there, i'm also going to add for blood tests to see what my hormone levels are - it would be good to know as i've never had one. I'll report back here and let you know how i get on :-)
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Hi Furyan,
i have an appointment on Monday with a female GP who is the go to for menopause at our practice. I'm going to discuss the oestrogel and see what she says. If she does say i have to use Utrogestan no matter how little of the gel i use, then it's a no go.
Whilst i'm there, i'm also going to add for blood tests to see what my hormone levels are - it would be good to know as i've never had one. I'll report back here and let you know how i get on :-)
Hope it goes well at your appointment Sam - see what she says and take it from there. At least you have an open mind! Blood tests are a good idea, see where you’re at, as that and symptoms will give clues where to go. Looking forward to hearing back x
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Thank you Furyan and just to say, my appt is actually this wed not today as i wrote. So i'll update then on how i get on :-) x
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Just back from seeing the menopause GP.
I showed her the 2 products i use (progesterone cream & Bi-estro cream) and asked if it was possible to substitute the Bi-estro cream with a NHS oestrogen product like Oestrogel but still use progesterone cream.
She said that it would be impossible to measure the smallest dose so that the strength is similar to what i'm taking in the cream. I use one pump of the cream which: 1 mg of natural Estriol USP and 0.25 mg of natural Estradiol USP.
I asked if there were any other suggestions as it does get quite pricey each month and she recommended a private menopause clinic who could tailor my needs and monitor me rather than the NHS. So I feel I've done a full circle as that's where i started on this journey with the lowest dose patch & utrogestan pills and they floored me (i brought that medication in today to show her). I asked what monitoring would I need and she said well, you're blood pressure each year - i do that at home already!
So, to summarise i'm keeping on the routine I currently take as I feel really good but i will need to stop taking the mini pill in a year - as per GP. Hope that doesn't rock the boat. Oh and i did ask about uterus lining issues as i've read about this on here a lot and that people have checks to see what the lining thickness is but she said it will be fine as i've been on the mini pill, no bleeds.
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Just back from seeing the menopause GP.
I showed her the 2 products i use (progesterone cream & Bi-estro cream) and asked if it was possible to substitute the Bi-estro cream with a NHS oestrogen product like Oestrogel but still use progesterone cream.
She said that it would be impossible to measure the smallest dose so that the strength is similar to what i'm taking in the cream. I use one pump of the cream which: 1 mg of natural Estriol USP and 0.25 mg of natural Estradiol USP.
I asked if there were any other suggestions as it does get quite pricey each month and she recommended a private menopause clinic who could tailor my needs and monitor me rather than the NHS. So I feel I've done a full circle as that's where i started on this journey with the lowest dose patch & utrogestan pills and they floored me (i brought that medication in today to show her). I asked what monitoring would I need and she said well, you're blood pressure each year - i do that at home already!
So, to summarise i'm keeping on the routine I currently take as I feel really good but i will need to stop taking the mini pill in a year - as per GP. Hope that doesn't rock the boat. Oh and i did ask about uterus lining issues as i've read about this on here a lot and that people have checks to see what the lining thickness is but she said it will be fine as i've been on the mini pill, no bleeds.
Hi Sam - doesn’t surprise me that she recommended a private menopause clinic. Tbf, it sounds reasonable since the NHS can’t personally tailor some meds for those of us who fall outside the typical ranges. I discovered this years ago with my other health conditions. It seems HRT hormones are no different for me (and indeed some of us here) - we just need finer tweaking to make it right for us, that’s all. Unfortunately though - means we have to pay for it (or elements of it).
Good to have the reassurance about your lining though. Wonder what effect the creams would have on lining if you weren’t taking the pill though? It’s always a consideration x
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Hi Furyan,
thank you and yes, I agree, the NHS is of no use for anyone who doesn't fit the standardised HRT medications.
She did say, having looked at the 2 products I buy & the strength of each that if i'm taking a standard pump of the estriol/estradiol cream and one of the progesterone, that irrespective of taking the mini pill it should be fine but of course she couldn't give any guarantees. However, i've just stopped taking the mini pill in the last couple of days as i know i cannot take it indefinitely so i'll see how that pans out. Fingers crossed i'll be okay (it's a bit scary changing something in a routine that works eek) but if I do start experiencing problems, i will book an appt with a private clinic that uses bioidentical hormone treatment. There is one near me https://www.hormonebalanceclinic.co.uk/. Sam x
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I’ve been meaning to ask how you’re getting on with coming off the mini pill Sam?
To update on my situation - I tried the cream once per day. I’d had good results in calming anxiety etc with the odd pump. But when using consistently I got days of feeling woozy and dizzy. Very much like crispychick on here.
So over a month ago I started utrogestan. Bizarrely it doesn’t make me tired. I take it orally. Some ups and downs but generally an improvement. However I think it’s stopped my cycle. Unless I’m on day 47 of my last cycle! I have the Mirena too but still bled but nothing since utrogestan and I’m struggling again now. Panic attack this morning.
Feel like I’m running out of options x
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Hi Scampi,
good to hear from you. I'm so sorry you're struggling, that's awful for you. I don't know what to suggest but hopefully someone can offer guidance.
With the mini pill, it's only been a few days really since i stopped and so far, not made any difference to anything which is good. Not had a period either but i guess its just early days from stopping it so we shall see. If i do encounter problems I'm going straight back on it as GP said i can continue for another year if i want to. Sam x
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I’m glad nothing bad has happened and I hope it continues to go well!!
Yes struggling again. I’m not sure if the utrogestan has stopped my cycle which in theory should be a good thing but things still feel like they’re fluctuating underneath.
Tried dim, trying glutathione and considering trying sulforaphane next to try and detox some estrogen. I had a Dutch test and estrogen wasn’t particularly high or low. Xx
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To update in case anyone follows this thread.
Firstly it looks like I’m new but I just couldn’t reactivate my account after leaving for a bit but I’m still the same person!
Tried utrogestan daily but my cycle was 47 days and pre menstrual was worse than normal and prolonged!!
I’m trying the contraceptive implant but that might be coming out tomorrow (long story)
I’ve got some compounded progesterone cream and might trial this next. I tried over the counter but this will be stronger.
I know a few use this like Marchlove. So if anyone has any insight into using compounded cream let me know.
Before I get any scary messages I’m not on oestrogen!!
I’m using the progesterone to try and help my histamine and mast cell issues. Similar issues to Marchlove genetically x
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Am not sure if any of you ladies are still around but I wanted to say a big THANK YOU for this thread.
I’ve been really suffering with ‘upping the estrogen’ to combat my symptoms and, after months of research and journaling came to the conclusion that the estrogen was the root cause. Being estrogen heavy has caused a nightmare for me and I am now trying to sort myself.
This thread has been so informative!
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I'm wondering about trying the Biovea progesterone (long story)
Anyway, for any of you ladies that have tried it, is it any better than taking a small amount of Utrogestan transdermally?
They are supposed to have the same active ingredient (natural micronised progesterone), but it seems that a lot of members find a big difference between the different oestrogen patches and gels although they too have the same active ingredient. So was wondering what you found.
Thanks :)
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Biovea is much better than Utrogestan in my opinion. I tried it and had no side effects at all.
I have never tried Utrogestan transdermally and I'm not sure it would work. Has anyone else tried it?
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I know of someone who uses it transdermally successfully and it does increase her progesterone as blood tests confirm it. However no womb so doesn't have to worry about that side of things. I keep meaning to try it myself as I am in the same position that I can get away with minimal dose. I just take the utrogestan orally but every other night. It seems to prevent build up that way.
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I know no one has posted for a while but I was wondering if any of you ladies are still around.
It’s been so interesting to read stories that are so similar to mine.
I’ve been on HRT for 18 months (diff types) and the E has done nothing but make me incredibly ill and affect my mental health.
This past week, after yet another spiral after reaching the 3 month mark, I decided enough was enough and stopped the patch I was on. Am pretty sure I shouldn’t be going cold turkey but I just couldn’t cope with it anymore.I’ve lost so much of my life trying to find an HRT that fits and not having anyone listen to what my body has been going through.
I’ve started taking wellsprings serenity daily and will monitor how things go.
I just wanted to say thank you to you all for sharing your experiences. It’s so hard to find a safe place to share when your experience doesn’t fit the ‘norm’