Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Other Health Discussion => Topic started by: honeybun on January 29, 2014, 07:55:55 PM
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"(the doctor) put me on valium and told me I would not get addicted if I only took it a couple of times a week. WRONG! I did get addicted, I stopped taking them thinking I would be ok, as I had stuck to docs instructions and I got terrible withdrawals.
I tried to get her to read Dr Heather Ashton's taper protocol, and she was having none."
Could I ask about the valium taper. I have been given valium for my anxiety by my GP to be used if I really need it. I use maybe a couple a month and sometimes not even that. How many were you taking in a week to get addicted. Valium use has always worried me. Basically I am scared of it and becoming too reliant.
If you don't want to talk about this then that's fine.
Honeyb
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HB- maybe this is not the right place to answer your query on Valium but here goes....
my mother in law was put on valium when her husband died and it was supposed to be for a week only. Due to drs' error she was able to get repeat prescriptions and did become addicted. she never stopped taking it for almost 20 years.
Recently a friend of a friend was given valium for severe anxiety and told it was highly addictive, so she was given 4 days' supply only and has been put on some other ADs now for a few months.
I don't know the dosage but it appears it is only to be used very short term and with caution.
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To be honest, that is exaggerating the addictive qualities of diazepam type drugs! To become physically addicted you would have to be taking every day for a number of weeks. As my gp and specialist explained, occasional use I.e. For a couple of days per week, even if that was the case every week, is very very unlikely to cause any issues. I have lorazepam which is very short-acting and take half a tablet every 2-4 weeks but have been prescribed to take as often as I need. My gp was even willing to prescribe low-dose clonazepam to be taken every day, on a long term basis (for anxiety) which I declined, but she is of the opinion that the risk of addiction is very low. These drugs are not to be taken lightly, but are not as dangerous as some would have you believe - in fact many ad's also require tapering to stop and give terrible symptoms! As with hrt, they have been given a very bad press, but have their place, in moderation
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Could I ask about the valium taper. I have been given valium for my anxiety by my GP to be used if I really need it. I use maybe a couple a month and sometimes not even that. How many were you taking in a week to get addicted. Valium use has always worried me. Basically I am scared of it and becoming too reliant.
If you don't want to talk about this then that's fine.
Honeyb
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Hi honeybun
Sorry, I didn't mean to worry you.
Diazepam or valium stays in the system for three weeks.
I would only take it once every three weeks.
My doctor was not aware of this, most doctors arent.
You can take it for a few days, but to be safe, leave a three week gap.
Here is an organisation that really helped me get started on my taper and educating me.
www.bataid.org
Hope that helps.
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To be honest, that is exaggerating the addictive qualities of diazepam type drugs! To become physically addicted you would have to be taking every day for a number of weeks. As my gp and specialist explained, occasional use I.e. For a couple of days per week, even if that was the case every week, is very very unlikely to cause any issues. I have lorazepam which is very short-acting and take half a tablet every 2-4 weeks but have been prescribed to take as often as I need. My gp was even willing to prescribe low-dose clonazepam to be taken every day, on a long term basis (for anxiety) which I declined, but she is of the opinion that the risk of addiction is very low. These drugs are not to be taken lightly, but are not as dangerous as some would have you believe - in fact many ad's also require tapering to stop and give terrible symptoms! As with hrt, they have been given a very bad press, but have their place, in moderation
Hi Suzy, not true I am afraid.
I only used valium two or three times a week, and I got hooked.
I'd had loads of week breaks and fortnight breaks, and it was only when I went 17 days without, did the symptoms hit.
Also, drugs like zopiclone and zolpidem are cross tolerant.
Lorazepam is shorter acting, so it doesnt hang around in your system like valium.
My doc would have been better off giving me lorazepam.
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I don't doubt your experience but as a rule, although one may become dependant upon Valium to relieve symptoms, addiction as such, using as you have described is very rare. I hope you continue to do well!!
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Thanks for your answers re the valium. I have never had any problems taking it at the amount I do and to be honest don't anticipate any.
I did not realise that you could become addicted without taking it on a regular daily basis but I guess it's just another example of how different we are.
Sorry for changing the subject, maybe a new topic calls.
Honeyb
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HB I don't agree that you can be addicted taking it once in a while this is the definition of "Addiction"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/addiction
Half a tablet when you feel you need does not count as addiction, just the fact that you have them in your drawer if you need them can be enough to get you through.
I have valium prescribed in 2008 by my doctor (who by the way told me that taken them when really needed would not do harm and that half the nation needed them at sometime just to get up and get out the door) I wasn't turned into an addict, my GP would certainly not keep prescribing me them, a good doctor is trained to recognise these things.
I have had a packet of zopiclone too that I have had for over a year, I slice a little of a tablet now and then, I certainly don't think I am addicted to them.
HB go and talk to your doctor and talk to him about your worried but for goodness sake stop worrying about addiction.
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The only reason why it is so easy to form a physical dependency on valium is because it has an enormously long half life and stays in the system much longer, than, say, lorazepam.
I wouldn't risk taking it every few days.
Maybe once every three weeks it will work, but best to get other less addicting drugs if you need to take it more regularly.
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Diazepam takes 1 to 3 days to clear from blood saliva
A single dose 10 dose takes 24 hours.
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I really am not worried that I am addicted SL. I don't feel any great need to take them but if something really challenging is approaching it makes me feel better if I know I have the option.
I do take the occasional one if I feel in need of extra help. My GP seems to be quite happy with this.
I don't get any withdrawal symptoms. At least I don't think I do because I am not sure how this manifests itself.
I do get a rotten headache about four hours after I take one that goes as quickly as it comes but that's it.
They are a life saver for me. Just sitting in my drawer.
Honeyb
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Great ( not the headache) HB, forgot to say too that some people metabolize drugs more quickly then others. Drink plenty of water the next day.
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The GPs are very cautious because we are more aware that *some* people can become addicted to various drug therapies. If someone is waking through the night thinking "I must take a Valium tablet?" is the need physical? Psychological addiction and physical addiction are different ;)
With physical addiction the body itself craves the drug. When the drug begins to leave the body, physical addiction causes shakes, vomiting, stomach cramps and the constant 'need' with the brain saying "I must take another to avoid these feelings".
I took 10mg on an as necessary basis for years. Usually the evening before an event that I HAD to go to, even visiting family ………. and I would take 5mg that morning if required. Once the day was over I never felt the need, emotionally or physically to take an 'extra' dose. I knew it worked. I knew it worked when required. Twice, after several years of using the drug I took 10mg and felt really woozy/weird so never took it again. I have the pot from 1999 ::)
My GP has given me another drug, name escapes me, to take in an emergency. For me the panic won't go once it sets in, around the gut/belly button region. So the medication calms those physical feelings so that I can begin to eat.
Interesting that Valium stays in the blood *that* long ……….. I was never aware of an after-effect that made me aware of it still working ………… there are people with an 'addictive personality' who are more likely to become hooked. At one point I was so desperate to be rid of anxiety that I would have taken heroin had it been of use!
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Must admit when my GP prescribed in them in 2008 he said it was the lowest dose and I could cut them in half, I only took one and that was half, then I panicked and thought of getting addicted. In hind sight now I wish I had used them when I needed them, I could have saved myself lot fear and anxiety and trips the A&E ,it may have shortened the time it took to get over my panic attacks.
I did do it my way without the valium but I think I was foolish not to take one as as needed. The pack in my drawer must be way out of date and keep thinking I must take them to the pharmacist to dispose of them but I haven't yet.
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Mine are 2mg so are the lowest dose available. A few years ago hubby had a trapped nerve in his neck and was in agony. The GP prescribed diazepam to be used at night to help him relax enough to get some sleep. He took them every night for about three weeks and then just stopped. I can't remember what strength he was on but much stronger than mine.
He was fine and has never taken them again.
I still don't understand how you have to go through a tapering off process if you were only taking a couple a week. :-\ But as I have said before we are all very different.
Honeyb
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Never knew they made 2mgs HB, I think they are just the job for now and then and for muscle relaxing, cutting a 10 mg into quarters might almost be the same, it would have certainly been welcome when my back was so painful at night, my osteopath said the muscles were very tight.
I don't think I would hesitate now if I needed to take now at that dose.
Would you believe it :o I have just gone and rummaged in the drawer to find the pack that I still have, its 2mgs!!! all these years I have had it in my head that it was 10 mgs, just shows what a frame of mind I was in then, it just makes me think more that I was silly not to heed my GPs advice and take them when I needed too.
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cutting Valium into smaller bits doesn't work! they are designed to release a certain doseage and have a coating on which allows them to be swallowed easier and then 'do their work'. 2mg is usually kept for tapering off. One only needs to consider tapering if one has been taking them for more than 3 months ........ under GP supervision.
I had tapering for an AD I was taking, although not addicted in the true sense, the side-effects of lesser and lesser doseages made me wired ::) I would spend a day curled up letting the side-effects work off each time I took less - 3 days then less the doseage - it took 9 weeks. My main problem was fear that I would never feel well again :-\, that the new ADs wouldn't be of benefit ....... but they have been !
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I just went to check too ;D. Yes 2mg so very mild I think.
My GP is ok with things. I booked a phone appointment and spoke to him. He has said there is no chance of becoming dependent on the occasional ones that I do.
He said he has never come across that before.
So that's good enough for me and I shall stop worrying ::)
Honeyb
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.......... knowing these meds work is often enough until I get into a tizzy ::)
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My mom is going on 90 and has been on Valium 5 to 10mg daily for almost 50 years, jeez, thats frightening, yet she seems to function just fine... would hate her to stop now, prob be the end of her :(
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Yes, in the sixties and seventies they (Diazepam and Librium!) were dished out like sweets to deal with what I realise now were the normal stresses of everyday life. I was a child at the time but can remember members of my family and their friends discussing being prescribed a regular daily dose on an indefinite basis, until they felt 'better'. My father particularly had a tough time stopping and concedes now that he never really needed them in the first place :o
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Librium kept my Dad kind of stable, he had to have regular blood tests to check the up-take of the drug. He was given Ativan (blue pill) which he became reliant on. But there was little else in 'those' days :'(
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That's triggered another memory - my Mum died when I was a teenager. I would have really benefited from some counselling - instead I was sent away with a prescription for Ativan >:(
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How long did you take it for? I had it as a pre-med before elective surgery
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I remember taking one and feeling so weird I didn't take any more - looking back I'm glad as I know it wasn't the answer for me at the time...
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I'll just chime in a say that no one should ever underestimate the dangers of any kind of benzodiazepine or Z-drug. Addiction is not rare at all. It happens far more often than most people realise, or what most doctors will acknowledge, and it can happen when you least expect it. To put them in the same category as HRT, as having had bad press, is very wrong IMO. The bad press that benzos get is justified.
It is very dangerous to start playing around with them. The danger starts when you think you can just take one "every so often". It's fine if you can stick to that, but thousands of people find that "every so often" soon becomes every day, and before they know it they're hooked. It's not about having an "addictive personality". When someone is suffering they often don't think about the consequences.
Most GPs are not educated in the proper use of these medications. IMO, they should be taken totally out of the hands of GPs, and only prescribed for specific situations by specialists, who understand the dangers and also understand the problems with withdrawal, because they aren't like any other kind of medication. Even the drug companies say they should not be prescribed for any more than 2 weeks, but a lot of doctors simply don't take any notice of that.
2mg isn't really a mild or a low dose. Sure, it's the lowest that can be dispensed, and is the lowest dosage benzo you can get, but stay on 2mg for a period of time and you can suffer very severe withdrawal symptoms which can last a long time - possibly longer than you actually took them for.
The best dose of any benzo is zero. There are always alternatives.
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Could you suggest some alternatives Dana? It would be handy to know what else can be prescribed.
Is 2mg every day worse than 2mg say a couple of times a month to calm anxiety which seems to be how Honeybun is using them? I remember using diazepam when my first marriage broke up. I was prescribed it for ten days but hated the way it made me feel - so dumbed down and out of it that I only took them twice.
Taz x
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I agree that you have to use them carefully but to say that doctors shouldn't prescribe them :-\
I too would be interested in an alternative.
I do not feel in any danger of becoming addicted. One on occasions is enough for me and I have been reassured by my GP that this is fine.
Honeyb
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I am no expert on this but the only reason I am posting is to share my only 2 experiences, one very recent.
One is a friend of a very close friend who had a breakdown a few weeks back- her neighbour who is also her GP gave her Valium for 4 days as she was almost suicidal- but he said no more- too dangerous and she is now on other ADs for a year at least.
My MIL was given Valium at 64 - to get over the funeral when her husband died- she couldn't get off them and her GP made the mistake of continuing to allow her to have them. There is a lot more to her condition than that- but valium certainly contributed to her psychological decline and dependency on drugs, of which Valium was one.
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Sadly Mental Health 'services' in the UK are the bottom of the funding pot and are still being cut. GPs have access to short term drugs but when they refer patients for other 'treatments', they are between a rock and a hard place because these services are non-existent. In 1992 I was offered talk therapy and 18 months later the Dept sent me a letter to see if I still required it :o so being cussed I went along although I had improved a bit.
Specialists don't always get it right either. Have worked with some who have no interest in the patient but are there to get their Pension, fortunately not too many but medication - as we have found - is a bit hit and miss as not everyone responds to drug regimes in the 'same' way. Prozac was supposedly to have 'no side effects' :bang: and it really does depend on whether someone has an 'addictive personality'. Other people get hooked because they believe what their GP suggests and the weeks go on so they don't think to go back and talk about adjusting the dosage or weaning off. We can all be guilty of staying in the status quo ;) ……….
At least we have an NHS and don't have to rely on an Insurance! The NHS problem is budgets set by a Government who can access Private care ::) ………..
'most GPs' - would be horrified if they were told what Dana believes :o - some are not educated in menopause problems and treatments but to say that they are unaware of the dangers of drug therapies that have been on the market for many years :-\ ……….
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I have to agree with what CLKD has said her post is very true.
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I think they are well aware of the issues with this kind of medication.
I trust my GP and will go by what he says.....ie...at the rate I take them there is NO danger of addiction.
Honeyb
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:thankyou: I've been around various mental health drugs since my Dad began being ill in the early 1960s :'( so have watched and learned. Having had severe mental health issues I have been lucky with a very good GP who has had oodles of patience, kindness and knowledge and a loving DH :-* ………… it is learning to listen to the GP when in the depths of wanting an instant 'cure' that I found difficult, I wanted to feel well and I wanted to feel well yesterday, not have to wait until the drug 'kicked in' :-\ ………..
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I am addicted to Valium, though they are called Diazepam now.
Iv'e been taking them every day for 40 years due to not being told they were addictive.
I have cut them down from taking 3 x 5mg tabs a day to 2x 2mg tabs a day but I was told
that I will never be able to stop them altogether or cut down anymore due to the severe withdrawal
that can be dangerous. :(
I would never had taken them if I knew then what I know now .
Ann x
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I think they have their place . A good gp prescribes carefully. When i started my peri meltdown four days with 2 x 2 mg a day gave me respite from the crippling anxiety and I was then in a position to discuss with my doc, next line of treatment. Years ago they were given out too freely with no monitoring. I still have valium if I feel really rough, maybe a low dose pill to enable me if I feel really jittery. I can't take beta blockers and not on hrt .
Acute Anxiety can be extremely uncomfortable . :(
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Acute anxiety can be fatal.
Ann - do they affect your daily Life or is it that you fear withdrawal symptoms? If you are 'coping' then try not to worry about the small amount that you are taking. The brain is an organ that we often forget to support :hug: and you may find that you are able to cut down further with supervision. How would 'severe withdrawal be dangerous', was it explained to you ?
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Hi CKLD
I'M sure I am suffering from tolerance symptoms now, it's like withdrawal without
lowering the dose.
I was told that cutting down more could give me seizures so I'm very scared about that.
It seems so hard to cut down tablets has you don't get the same dosage with every cut.
I really need guidance and supervision but gp's are not good with cuting down benzos,
they want you yo do it too quickly.
Ann x
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This maybe of help Ann
http://www.bcnc.org.uk/howtowithdraw.htm
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Hi Ann
The recommendation I understand is to do it very slowly by microtapering - and you won't be able to do this by cutting the pills. You need to get the same product as a syrup and reduce it in minute doses so that your body does not notice it ie it would not be severe withdrawal.
I gather it can take a year. There is a member on here who knows about this but I won't speak for her and I am sure she will post if she reads this.
You might like to Google microtapering benzo... in the meantime
Hurdity x
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySD_UIMVFg0
You will have to be dedicated to this I have read about it, http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php'topic=56009.0
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It took me 9 weeks to taper off an anti-depressant. If you want to come off then maybe ask if you can be referred to a Psychiastrist or contact MIND charity for advice. If you are OK with where you are now, then continue with your regime. It's all about getting through the day ;)
GPs do offer support, mine certainly helped me by offering me advice, appropriate withdrawal amounts of the drug and I learned to rest on the day after the dosage was lowered. My worry was that the side-effects would never go away and also that the next drug wouldn't help, so my feelings as well as physical were psychological driven by fear of being ill again.
My symptoms were: fear, headaches, queasy tummy, woozy feelings …….. then for 3-5 days I would feel OK until the next low dose ……….. but it did work.
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You will have to be dedicated to this I have read about it, http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php'topic=56009.0
Benzo Buddies is an excellent support forum, and I would recommend anyone go there and read some of the information to find out exactly what benzos can do - before you start taking them. The sad and scary stories hopefully will be enough to scare the pants off you, and a lot of these people were taking low doses on an irregular basis.
A lot of people just have no idea what benzos can do, because happily they've never been in the position to know. I will repeat what I've said before - a lot of doctors just have no idea either, and are the reason why there are so many people posting on BB. If some doctors aren't educated properly in meno treatments (which have been around for a long time) why would we assume they are educated about benzos, which have been around about as long.
Check out the BB link, particularly the introduction stories. It will be an eye-opener for most people. This is the link to the general forum http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php
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It is an excellent site as MM is in all its diversity, that is to say there is much advice and lots of different opinions about what works and how it works on each individual.
I noticed that many are on high doses and trying to wean off.
In the insomnia section I read that one person was taking 9 mgs! of Melatonin and saying how unwell it made her, well that is no surprise as and I have never anywhere read that you should take that amount as it is recommended 3mgs or less, much less is recommended.
I also read that that there is a book by Jane Hill ( microtapering benzo" that some swore by and others suggested not to buy, I just glanced at this so may not have got all the facts.
If you need to or want to taper off its best to see your GP, there is a notice in my GPs waiting room about coming off ( its lists drugs) and go from there.
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I also read some of the posts and it does not make happy reading. One thing they did have in common from what I read was the amount they had been taking.
My occasional 2mg pales into comparison.
Honeyb
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Just to add I am not at all worried about taking a sliver of zopiclone once in a while when needed, but there is one substance which is highly addictive I would like to taper off and that's sugar. They say its as addictive as Heroine and I do crave it every day. We have been told it causes heart disease to skin aging, I don't crave any drugs but I do crave sugar and I do worry about that.
I am not being flippant but taking a very low dose valium or a zopiclone once in a while with your doctors knowledge is not an addiction,I have read that it may cause more problems if you have an addicted personality which is genetic I believe , but you shouldn't feel terrified if you do succumb now and then.
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Thank you silverlady, I am feeling somewhat better about my need for the odd night of zoplicone here and there. My gp will only prescribe 10 tabs at a time which works out very expensive, so Is also a deterent for becoming addicted.
I felt so sad for some of the people on the forum , addiction must be awful.
PN x x
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Silverlady, I too am trying to cut down on sugar but am finding it so hard.
I do crave something sweet everyday.
The big problem for me is what to replace it with as I have Ibs and can't eat so many things.
Ann
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Another thread ........