Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: jorainbow on January 19, 2017, 07:10:58 AM
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Morning all - I am 47 and in perimenopause (chin hairs/skin changes/aching joints pre period/dryness here there and everywhere) but still have regular periods. One thing I have noticed and mentioned previously is post period mood swings. I have had some external stressors recently so aware mood etc is slightly lower than usual but this last episode was absolutely dreadful. Anxiety off the scale, tears, intrusive thoughts you name it. Heart rate on waking from a nana nap yesterday was 112 so ended up at GP. Prescribed beta blockers if needed and am being tested for thyroid issues (sister had hers removed years ago) but when I mentioned hormone testing thats when the assistance stopped. Is it possible to do tests when periods still regular or would they not show much? TIA
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Hi jorainbow
Sorry to hear about your problems. It's a good thing they are testing your thyroid because some of these symptoms can be due to this and sometimes this gland goes a bit wonky in women as they head for middle years!
Re testing for sex hormones (as opposed to thyroid ones): from what I've read, on average during the late reproductive stage - when periods are still regular, FSH begins to vary as the ovaries being to pack up and ovulation becomes less frequent - and at this time pms often becomes more pronounced. Some women also begin to experience peri-menopausal symptoms at this point even though not "officially" at peri-menopause (according to the medical definition). Some of these women do in fact benefit from a low dose HRT at this stage, and others find that controlling the cycle with the birth control pill ( there a couple that are a bit like HRT rather than the stronger synthetic types). You are the right age for this.
However current guidelines are that women should be diagnosed as peri-menopausal on the basis of cycle changes and symptoms alone - so if your cycle has not changed then presumably that's why they do not see the need. In the meantime - if your thyroid turns out to be OK - where does that leave you with symptoms?
I suggest you wait until the results of the thyroid tests - and then decide what to do depending on the outcome. Either ask for a blood tests, or for something to control your cycle/prevent mood swings.
From what I understand palpitations are also common in peri-menopause - has the doc said you have a heart problem or that it is dangerous to have a temporary high heart rate like that?
Hurdity x
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Hi Hurdity and thank you for the information. It does make sense and if they dont show anything then no reason - what is the medical definition of peri? I get confused with that!!!!
He attributed the heart rate to anxiety alone - blood pressure was fine. As I have felt calmer today my heart rate is as it usually is around 86-90. I slept better last night and have eaten better too all of this has contributed to how I was I think. I went for my bloods done this morning so hopefully they'll be back beginning of the week and I'll know what I am dealing with. I have also registered with the local IAPT and am having a course of CBT. Most importantly I am going to keep a diary of symptoms and confirm the patterns. Overall I need to look at my stress levels, diet and anything else which may have a negative impact on mood and hormones.
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Just spoken to a lady GP from the practice. Her words were (please dont shoot the messenger!!!) the menopause can cause a little increase in anxiety and depression but not to a great degree like you are experiencing. :( :(
She has suggested fluoxetine or a systemic hrt tablet which may help. What is the latter? Any thoughts? ?
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Hi jorainbow
How I understand it is that if you haven't experienced depression or anxiety in your life then if you suddenly start experiencing these feelings for the first time heading towards menopause - or they become more extreme, and especially if they are cyclical and there are no life events likely to have caused them – then these are most likely due to hormones. As I said from what I've read pms worsens in late reproductive stage – due to the fact hormone begin to surge and fall to a greater degree and this gets worse as peri-menopause starts and oestrogen levels also crash in between cycles. I think from a medical point of view this change is more difficult – because if you are having regular periods, then officially peri-menopause has not begun when the NICE Guidelines state that anti-depressants should not be prescribed in the first instance for menopausal symptoms.
The NICE Guidelines use this definition : Perimenopause The time in which a woman has irregular cycles of ovulation and menstruation leading up to menopause and continuing until 12 months after her final period. The perimenopause is also known as the menopausal transition or climacteric.
Early peri-menopause is more precisely defined in the STRAW papers (linked to on here at various times – can provide it if you want) but these provide a model for a large proportion of women – of course by no means all will follow the model pattern!
I think this is the point many women are given ADs and are then on this slippery road – to needing them long term and in higher doses. Personally I would go for the systemic HRT tablet – this is just HRT. Systemic means it is absorbed into the system as opposed to local oestrogen ( vaginal).
A while back someone posted a link to a paper by ?Panay maybe – about treatments for pms at this point – ooh I've just found it – sorry haven't read it but may be something useful there:
http://www.nickpanay.com/Papers%20pdf/Royal%20College%20of%20Obstetrians%20%20Gynaecologists%20PMS%20Guidelines.pdf
You could also think of trying the CCP – one of the milder types which is like HRT – maybe this has already been said on another thread? This would control your cycle and eliminate the mood swings.
Rather these than beta blockers and ADs - if a hormone solution will work!
Hope this helps :)
Hurdity x
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Thank you! Im going to use the record of symptoms sheet in that pdf it's great. I'm not really sure what I'm dealing with but feel like my body and mind are having a battle with me. I know I've had emotional upsets plus the accident and I know my hormones have always made my moods very up and down. I'm now finding I have horrendous dips two or three times a day often before or just after food where I go into a complete fog which just increases my anxiety so I'm looking at my eating and sugar levels. But despite all this I am still trying to be positive 😯
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In the late 1980s NAPS advised me to eat every 3 hours, 24/7 to stop that awful 'dip' when the body requires sustenance! It worked then and I have kept to the 3 hourly regime almost every day since! I spread out my diet rather than eating extra, adding a good carbohydrate mix as well as slow release foods, i.e. bananas; snacks are dried fruits and nuts, RedyBrek, Dextrose tablets when necessary. As for using BBs as necessary :-\ ........ they aren't an anti-anxiety medication but are used to lower heart rate.
Having had bad PMT in the 1980s/90s I was lucky in that all those symptoms went at peri-menopause : PHEW!
Browse round. Make notes. Keep a mood/food/symptom diary will help you chart on a daily basis.
Your symptoms sound hormonal, therefore HRT should be discussed - is there a Dr in your Practice who is lady-savvy or a Practice Nurse?
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Thanks CKLD! Ready oats, oat biscuits and bananas bought today! Also making sure I have something on my bedside table as im early morning waking at 3am. I haven't taken any more beta blockers as my heart rate is 70-80 now. I'm seeing a lady gp Friday to discuss and hopefully my bloods will be back by then. 😊
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I use gels occasionally that the Pro-cyclist drink whilst racing but that is a sharp sugar burst. Exercising is supposed to help symptoms too ::)
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Thanks again CKLD! Bloods came back all fine so I'm assuming this is partly hormonal and partly stress. The main thing I find difficult is this spaced out feeling. It's damned annoying!!
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Could it be that you aren't eating enough or maybe sleeping too deeply, I get a weird, like my head is elsewhere, feeling when I've had a good night's sleep ::) - bugga ........
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Probably on both counts due to stress. It's improving as my appetite is. Had a dip an hour ago felt awful foggy weepy - ate two slices of brown toast and marmite and I'm back to ok and off to aqua aerobics. Not 100% but such a difference.
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Eat when you get out of that pool ;D - I feel worn out thinking about undressing, swimming, dressing :whist:
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Ate a banana whilst drying off. Really enjoyed it though! Had lunch (toasties and chips) no dip so far.... awful period pain for 10 mins though 😡😡😡
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Has a fantastic lesson today from a psychologist about food, digestion rates, glycogen and the affect on anxiety. Interesting stuff and certainly makes sense. Didn't realise the the food from the tea you eat isn't available energy wise until mid morning the next day! Explains the early morning anxiety issue as well as the brain fog which can be caused by lack of glycogen. He also thinks I have mild depression caused by the stressors I've experienced which I would agree with. So for now it's concentrate on my diet, try get better sleep, meditate and exercise. Being back at work tomorrow will help too. I am of course worrying I'll have a huge dip around period time but will just have to see x
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Bananas are many a lady's saviour on here, Jo! Balancing blood sugar is very important as it goes haywire during periods of hormonal fluctuations. I'm so glad you're receiving such good holistic support via your psychologist. xxxxx
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Thanks Tempest - he is v good. Saw him years ago and this time I've only seen him once but he's a mine of information. Next session 23 Feb but he's always on the end of an email. Advocate of meditation too 😊😊
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That's fantastic, Jo! May I ask, is he NHS or are you seeing a private psychologist? I'm thinking about tapping into private therapy myself - the waiting list via the NHS is pretty horrendous where I live (but I think that's also true of most of the country)!
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Private based in Harrogate. Initial session was 3. 5hrs at £50 and sessions after are around 2-3 hrs (same cost) which makes it very affordable. Also as he's happy to see as frequently as I like.
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:-\. - it really does depend on what you eat for your evening meal. I don't think that the body burns off in the night as in the same way when we are more active, but cortisol is responsible for most early morning 'dips', not what we have eaten.
If you eat every 3 hours for the rest of your Life those dips will lessen because your blood sugar levels will be more even. It took me a few months to remember to eat B4 my body was hungry ::) - because by then it was too late and I would be dropping with anxiety. It annoyed his family a lot because I often needed to eat B4 they did, they would suggest a 12.30 lunch time but then wouldn't start cooking until that time, I got so that I took my own food! that didn't go down well either so I told them to treat me like a diabetic - "you wouldn't query that diagnosis would you? " ;)
It takes practice! Which is why it is important to have bananas etc. to hand B4 required.
Many years ago I worked for a Consultant who recommended the use of yoga, at a time when the suggestion was thought 'way out' ::)
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Thanks, Jo! That's about comparable with what we have here, except sessions are shorter at an hour to an hour and a half each. xxxx
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Tempest im waiting for cbt via nhs but thought I deserve this so I'll spend the money!
CKLD - bought a huge bunch of bananas and am following your three hourly advice and also drinking more water. Also taking metatone as a supplement which traumatised my mum briefly as she thought I said methadone 😂😂😂😂
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:rofl: Gotta love when Mum's get it wrong.......
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Oh pleeeaaassseee ;D - bit like my Mum when she had hallucinations in Hospital recently: the Dr was cutting up leaves 'in that corner over there' and boiling it 'in that kettle on that table' and handing out to the other patients. I didn't get any, probably optimum' .......... ::)
That's eating every 3 hours even in the night ;) so after a bathroom visit have a biscuit!
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Ginger nuts in my bedside drawer 😂😂
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:-X my I giggle :D
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I need a good giggle. Husband just walked off mid me having a bit of a meltdown. Won't answer phone. Pass me a bloody banana 😊
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Has he taken the phone with him, mine often doesn't :D
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Yes he did! He turned up when I was out with the dog and as he stropped off minus keys couldn't get in. I said I'd be back in 5 but noooooooooo he had to go off in another sulk. I feel like I'm being transported back to 1996 when my second son was two........ 😂😂
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;D
Are you in the warm yet?
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Yes CKLD but anxiety levels raised and can't sleep. Had my ginger nuts though ☺
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Morning! Is there a hormone guru who could explain why after ovulating (two days of period pains and definitely mid cycle) I feel calmer and less foggy?
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Hi jorainbow - in a normal menstrual cycle this is defo weird! After ovulation your oestrogen crashes briefly and then rises again (not so high as before ovulation) and then falls until after or during your period. After ovulation progesterone rises (comes from corpus luteum - ruptured egg sac)and reaches a peak at end of third week and then falls - until around the bleed, then stays low until after ovulation. Some women find that progesterone is calming - but usually the extreme version of this is fatigue, foggy head and depression. So most women would feel more maybe calmer, but more foggy after ovulation. oestrogen is not a fog inducing hormone - it makes us alert and bright :). Are you sure you are ovulating then? Are you taking HRT which could confound things?
Hurdity x
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I've always had mittleschmertz since I started my periods so can only assume as I'm day 16 it's ovulation. Not taking HRT. Last few days I've been very low and foggy headed with anxiety but that's cleared today. Very confusing!!!!!
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Once again I'm confused by my hormones 😣😣😣 mid cycle (or what it should be) awful moods and anxiety that slowly picked up. Weekend and beginning of the week mood wise felt like me! Boobs hurt and period pains so I knew I was due. Period arrived today and I've crashed again - teary and increased anxiety. I kniw it's been said before but it's so tiring not knowing what to expect of each day. This afternoon I should be creating seating plans for exama. Instead I'm making a super chart with a graph to track this journey including sleep food the lot!!!!
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Thanks Sparkle that made me smile! !!!