Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: moonbeam121167 on December 30, 2013, 10:16:19 AM
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Hi all hope you all had a good Christmas, I finally emailed Dr Currie and she was great, she also thinks a patch or gel would be better so I have printed the email and I am going to make appointment to see my GP but not sure which to ask for Sandara gel or Estradot patch, has any of you ladies got any avice on the matter
thanks xxx
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i use sandrena have had no problems plus its really convenient to carry about as it comes in small sachets. patches always came off on me.
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Can't comment on Sandara gel, I used to use oestrogel. Changed to Estradot, which are pretty good at sticking, so long as you follow the instructions. Would hate to go back to gel.
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I used to use sandrena and liked it, only drawbacks are remembering to use it every day, and waiting for it to dry.
I've tried various patches in the past, most were quite big (about an inch square) and were t brilliant at sticking. Estradot is about 1x1.5 cm and sticks really well, but leaves a sticky line after removal and is irritating me, making me itch like mad!
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So confused, like the sound of the gel as you can adjust the dose, I tried Estraderm 50mg for 3 weeks they seemed to wear off too soon and I was changing them more often, GP said they dont do a stronger one and advised me to go back on the pills as it has no affect on the stomach but after emailing Dr Currie I now know different but I just dont know what to ask for and I know we are all different and have favorites :)
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I am loving Oestrogel its great :)
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Thats what a lot of women have said and thats why I am leaning towards the gel , I have not got very sensitive skin, I can use bleach without using rubber gloves, the only thing I cant use is smelly perfume things on my intimate parts :)
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Estradot come in 100, 75, 50, 37.5 & 25 mcg size reduces with strength too.
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Hi moonbeam
As I've said before your doctor was wrong about strengths of patches - most of them are the same as Estradot ie come in several doses from 25 mcg up to 100 mcg.
If you got on well with the patches then why not try again. I am an Estradot fan because they are small. It's not good to change them too often - most are designed to be changed twice weekly. If the dose is not sufficient as you found - then ask for a higher dose, rather than change them more often.
To minimise side effects best to start eg with 50 mcg and build up the dose gradually. I can't remember how old you are but if you are under 50 or around that age I would have thought you could happily have 100 mcg patch, and especially as you don't need progesterone to keep the lining thin.
Good luck
Hurdity x
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Hi Hurdity
the patch didnt irritate me but never lasted long, I had to change it more often, I was on 50mg and the GP said they dont do a higher dose and told me the pills dont affect the stomach so told me to go back on the pills, I know now its not true as I emailed Dr Currie and after reading peoples comments on the gel I am leaning towards it :)
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Hi girls, tried to get a GP appointment but they said I cant have one for over 2 weeks, so I have just changed doctors, I will have to wait till Monday for my records to be sorted and then I can get a appointment but I am still undecided what to try Estradot patch or Gel, looking alot on here and other sites and it seems to be the patches and gel are both liked, I know we are all different and I am leaning towards the gel, I dont care about seeing the patch all I want is either one to help with A. my stomach issues, B. headaches C. anxiety and D, the rest of the menopause symptons and to feel good again, I know I seem like a broken record but I dont want to keep swapping and changing the HRT, sorry girls again and I hope someone will understand were I am coming from
thanks x
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Have used the gel for many years, would not consider anything else, for me, I love it...:)
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I love the gel. I had an hilarious discussion last night with make GP friend who thought Oestrogel was vagifem ;D I him sent a message on Facebook this morning to say I have double checked and my f**** is full working order ;) Just to warn you so you can clearly explain what Oestrogel or Sandrena Gel is.
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Hi Ellie66 and Cassie thanks for the help, so do you think I should give the gel a whirl then, as I said before tried Estraderm 50 but felt it wore off to soon and i was changing it every 2 to 3 days and it would curl up, I like the thought of the gel as you can tweak it a bit xx
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If the man does not get that hint Ellie, then I dunno, he must be batting for the other team lol! I would give the gel a try MB, you have nothing to lose and yes, you can adjust the plunges of gel up or down and see how you feel. I ran low on my over Christmas so was using only one pump, sometimes half and I really felt bad for the first time in years and years so have upped it again to just under 2 plunges and feel myself again :) Great stuff!
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thanks Cassie xx
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I have to say I would go for patches. Stick them on and forget it for a few days then repeat.
Have you stopped your HRT pills to see if that's what's causing your headaches and stomach problems.
Honeyb
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Hi Honeybun I have stopped using double the dose of Vagifem and my headaches havent been so bad, after talking to Dr Currie I am going to try the patch or gel as she believes the pills will effect the stomach but I am so so undecided now on what one to try, I was leaning towards the gel untill now when you said to try the patch again, why the patch and why do you think the Estradot will be any better than the Estraderm, sorry to be a pain but I am so confused xx
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I use Evorel. It comes in a variety of strengths and sticks very well.
It really is a personal choice, it's just I could not be bothered with a gel. The patch delivers a constant amount over a given time and can also be adjusted by cutting a little bit off. This is not a small patch so adjustment is easy.
I just stick mine on my bum and forget it.
Honeyb
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Hi Moonbeam - I think patches or gel are better tolerated by the liver, also they aren't affected by stomach upsets or vomiting.
I use patches because I swim quite a bit and suspect they cope better with that than gel would.
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Hi I tried with the Estraderm 50 and after around the 2 1/2th day my symptoms were coming back, I did cut a patch in half and put 1 and 1/2 on but I felt awful so I took it off, I remember when I tried giving up smoking I tried the Patches and I was bad on them so I gave up cold turkey, ask my GP and she said the pills have no effect on the stomach so I went back on the pills, I was stupid enough to believe her as she is a doctor and I wasnt and just went back on the pills, I am so worried about the patch as I dont want those symptoms again thats why I am leaning towards the gel , so confused towhat to do !!!
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Pills can effect the stomach as they go through the intestines whereas patches and gel don't.
Taz x
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I know but I tried the Estraderm patch and didnt like it, as I only used it for a month but maybe if my GP was helpful and took me off it but in hindsight I dont think I gave it a chance but scared to try it again and thats why I leaning towards the gel, have you any views on either one please :)
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Using a patch or gel helps to avoid stomach upsets as they don't go through the liver.
In saying that if you use too much oestrogen then you will feel nauseous no matter what the delivery method.
You are best to start off on a lowish dose and let your body become accustomed to it.
The gel is no better or worse than a patch. The patches are more convenient but the gel can be tweaked more easily. They both get into the body in the same way.....ie through the skin.
It really is up to you and what you feel comfortable with.
Honeyb
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If you've paid for a consultation from Dr Currie then I would think it best to go with what she suggests?
Taz
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I think Dr Currie said either patch or gel would suit Taz and there lies the dilemma.
Honeyb
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Dr Currie said try Estradot 50 but also said it is down to me and what one I want to try and that is why I so confused and she is the expert, I want to take her advice but I am scared it will not work like the Estraderm 50 didnt so why will the Estradot work better !!! really dont know all I want is to feel sort of normalish again thats all
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Like Taz says Dr Currie is the expert.
Why not try what she suggests?
Estradot may work, if it doesn't then try something else.
You won't know till you try.
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I have tried patches not for menopausal issues but Consultant suggested them when I was bleeding with the Mirena which I had for contraception. However I love the gel I did not particular like patches they did not suit me.
Its so easy to adjust and only take a few minutes to dry. Huge gel fan here lol ;D
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Hi Ellie66 how long did it take to work, does it wear off easily or once dry its fine, I like the sound of it, you can tweak it if you need more or less, Dr Currie did say also if I want to try the gel its a good option anyway but I am in such a dilemma as she is an expert in the field x
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Time to be your own expert then, with the gel you easily use as much or as little as you want, perhaps if you ask for the Estrogel that comes in a pump container, then the sachets.
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Hi moonbeam
I think you're going round in circles in a bit now! I don't think there is anything more we can say to help you - we have said the same thing many times - and it's up to you now!!
It comes down to choice. No-one can say how each method will affect you - just the main principles. You need to stop worrying and try one!!
Just plump for whichever method appeals to you - either daily application of a gel, or twice weekly application of a patch and then give it a try. Estradot are very small and stick well so if there is a smaller area of the body for irritation from the adhesive and easier to find a new place to stick to if you don't want to bother rubbing off the marks - which I don't!
Just make a decision for whichever one of these takes your fancy and give it a try for a few weeks.
Good luck and hope whichever one you choose works for you!
Hurdity x
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Hurdity I total agree with you, its doing my head in as well, this menopause has been the bane of my life, my kids are forever taking the mick out of me, I do appreciate all your help and support :) :) :)
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Have you made a decision then.
Honeyb
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Hi yes I going to try the gel and not sure which one Sandrena or Oestrogel !!
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Make a decision and stick to it. Then when you visit the doctor you can be assertive.
Honeyb
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2014 is going to be a good year, I have started to grow my nails and bought myself some nail vanish today and hopefully changing my doctor practice and then sorting my HRT will be the next step after that, I have gotto be positive, as a year of illness and depression is enough , thanks x
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I had Sanrena gel when I was bleeding with the Mirena that I used for contraception in my 30's. Consultant prescribed it. Oestrogel is fab as you can take up 3mg ie 4 pumps so more flexible than Sandrena gel.
If you sensitive to progesterone like I am the Mirena is blooming awful I felt dreadful for a whole 5 years until I was sterilised. Never ever again do I want a Mirena anywhere near me!!! Utogestan is fab I am been absolutely fine on the 200mg of it from days 15-26 this month.
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Ellie66 is Oestrogel the best to ask for, is it easy to use, I am currently on Climaval 2mg so what would be the dose roughly to use, i have seen on here that you use less Sandrena gel than Oestrogel and is thinner but again its down to personal preference isnt it xx
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I was on Femston 2mg/10, but was having hot flushes, similar to you I started on 3 pumps then upped it to 4 pumps I feel fab so much better its unbelievable. There is 0.75mg Oestrogen in 1 pump so I worked it out approximately.
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Oestrogel is great, you rub it on, I alternate between my 2 inner thighs, sometimes front or back of legs, makes no diff. It is quite cold, as it contains alcohol, so not so great to use in Winter, I put it on in bed @ night but it is easy to use and I have been great on it. Good luck in your decision.
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Sounds like you've made your decision Moonbeam, but I'll just add that I'm also a fan of Estradot 50. They're a "set and forget" kind of thing. When I open a new box I write on each little envelope the day and time I have to replace it and then leave it on the shelf next to the bathroom sink, so I can never forget when it needs to be changed.
I've never had any problems with them sticking or the adhesive. In fact here in Australia it has been incredibly hot over the last couple of days and I'm constantly checking my patch to make sure it's not coming off, but it's stuck to my bum like glue...lol.... Sure it sometimes leaves a tiny sticky mark when you take it off, but I find that disappears after a shower or two.
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Hi all I am going to try the gel but unsure which one, its what ever one is easier to use , not really worried about convenience as I dont go anywhere and if I do is in my caravan , just want one that is easy to use not to messy x
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Oestrogel or Femigel, its contained in a nice neat tin, you pump out how much you need, general dose is 2 pumps per day, no nice, no fuss, if you dont like it after a few months, you can always try something else.
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Hi Cassie I have never heard of Femigel, I thought it was Oestrogel or Sandrena x
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A quick google search and it seems to be Australian? I think we only have Oestrogel and Sandrena Gel in the UK
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It seems as if Femigel is "hormone free" and is a moisturiser rather than an oestrogen containing gel?
Taz x
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This Femigel contains oestrogen? http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/Femigel%20-%20South%20Africa%20PIL.pdf Its South African
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Oh yes! Not in Australia which must be a different product. Confusing!!
Taz x
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No Tazz, that must be another type of Femigel then. The one that I am referring to is the other name for Oestrogel. Someone once posted on this forum a photo of the cans of Femigel aka Oestrogel, its all the same stuff, just under different names. Ellie, Femigel is not South African, I think that you maybe just happened on one of the SA sites, if you read that label, at the bottom, you will see that it is manufactured in France @ the Besins Laboratorie, which is, the same company that manufactures the Utrogestan. I think it just depends on where you are as to whether it is called Femigel or Oestrogel or the other name, which I cannot remember, wish I could find that photo somewhere.... :)
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So Oestrogel is the better of the two x
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This is the Australian Femigel http://www.expresschemist.co.uk/Femigel-Tea-Tree-Vaginal-Moisturiser.html
I can see that it is a totally different product from the other one.
Taz :-\
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Yip, Oestrogel is the way to go :)
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Or patches.
I am flying the flag for the patch using ladies. Accurate, not messy, and no fuss. Works great.
Honeyb
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Hehe, Honeybun, Patches are also great, I believe, I just prefer the gel as one has more leverage, up or down, according to ones symptoms, so its not so much a case of one size fits all. But if for whatever reason, I could not go with the gel anymore, Estradot would be my next port of call.
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I will give Oestrogel a go and hopefully touch wood I will be good on it xx
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Now after your deliberations all you have to do is convince your GP.
Sort out all your facts and go in confidently with your email from Dr Currie.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
Honeyb
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Yes I have printed off the emails she has sent me and other bits and pieces, hopefully changing GP practices and seeing someone new will be a good thing and hopefully they will listen xx
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I think patches or gel is down to personally preference. I absolutely love the Oestrogel I do not find it messy. Its like an expensive beauty gel/cream :)
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Thanks everyone and once I have seen a GP I will let you all know xx
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Hi all again, just an update, been to the new GP and it didnt go well >:( >:( >:( he said the pills will not affect my stomach, wasnt interested in the emails from Dr Currie or what I want, he also said western women are prone to being stressed and HRT wont help, will not refer me to a meno clinic as my symptoms are under control, I asked for the gel and he gave me Evorel 50 patch >:(, just want to cry :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(, dont know what to do, just want to curl up and cry :( :( :( :(
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Patches are just as good as gel as far as getting estrodiol into your body so don't cry, some ladies like gel some patches, its an ascetic thing really, you are over thinking this too much.
If the 50 patch is too much cut it in half .
His remark about "western women are prone to being stressed and HRT won't help" is crass (Is he non western, I have found that some are not keen to prescribe HRT) please put it out of your head, you have your patches at least.
Quite honestly I don't think you would get much more help from a menopause clinic ( personally I think they are over rated) a good GP can help just as much or even more.
Please try to get on with your life and try to forget about hormones as you as you say your symptoms are under control. the alternative is not taking hormones at all and suprizingly as it may seem millions of women do get through menopause without adding hormones.
I really wish you well moonbeam and hopefully the patches will be the answer.
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THanks you so much, I was again made to feel like a hypochondriac and I am not just want to be taken seriously thats all, he didnt even tell me how to start these patches, I take the pill after my tea at around 6ish , so is it best to not take it tonight and then start afresh tomorrow night x
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Moonbeam read the directions that came with patches, they will tell you how to use the Patches.
Don't look at the "contradictictions" unless they apply to you personally.
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Moonbeam- I am a gobby so and so. If that was me I would me writing a letter of complaint to the Practice about him not listening to me and ignoring the Meno Specialists advice ie Dr Currie. The comment on western women is bordering on racist I would definitely complain about that.
It is just not acceptable. One complaint letter usually means they are more careful in future.
I would see a different GP next time too.
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I agree, but a letter of complaint can sometimes work against you, if it were me and it was possible to see another doctor in the practice, I would
mention to him/her that I was upset by such and such's remark and leave at that.
Also some Drs re a bit funny about quoting other doctors advice.
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As a former Practice Manager I would want to know if comments like that where being made. This could be a safety issue too. Plus Dr Currie is not some random doctor she is a Meno Expert.
Without a complaint other patients may be left at risk.
Complaints like this do not work against the patient. It really does need a complaint. Plus see another GP next time.
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I never said that Dr Currie was some random doctor.
I have quoted at some times what had been adviced on MM only to be told that, "Let me see what the problem is" and I took to mean, I am treating you!
I was not offended at all by this.
Most doctors like to make their own diagnosis and treatment and ask for a second opinion if needed, its a question of being tactful with your Doctor, some doctors don't mind others do.
moonbeam must make up her own mind how she handles the remarks, and take the advice she thinks she can handle and how she complains.
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I agree with SL. Doctors generally don't like when you quote the internet or others doctors. If they have an interest in meno then they may well have heard of Dr Currie if not then :-\
I would just see another GP and not go back to the offensive one.
After all Moonbeam has got an alternative to pills and if the pills were the cause of the headaches and sick feelings then she has got what she wanted.
There has been a lot of over thinking and worrying about this. Now it's a case of sticking a patch on and hopefully feeling better.
If you have not taken a pill today then you can put the patch on now and stop stressing please.
Honeyb
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Adding to HBs post, my Surgery consists of four doctors of whom one is the senior doctor plus reception staff and two nurses, there is not a Practice Manager.
Tact and diplomacy I think is the best way to handle some things.
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I agree SL.
I am lucky in my practice but I know exactly how to handle various doctors. Some are open to having a discussion and others are not so if it's not a quick appointment that I need I pick who I want depending on what is wrong with me.
It would really have to be a huge issue before I would complain as I am sure it would affect the relationship I have with the GPs that I see.
We only have the one surgery in my area so it's that or nothing.
Honeyb
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The problem that would worry me as a Practice Manager is he may be a salaried GP or a long term locum and not a partner in the Practice in which case Practice would definitely need to know about this. Dismissing what another doctor says without even having the courtesy to consider it or even look at the email is dangerous IMO
Disclaimer I am gobby and confident, too may years in the NHS. I would not tolerate that kind of nonsense.
It just horrifies what goes on, a lot of which is potentially dangerous.
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This Doctors he is a old GP who has been there since since year dot, it does leave me pondering on whether it is just me, I will try this patch tonight and you never know it may work but it scares me to go back if it doesnt, my faith in GP is on an all time low , just want to feel good for my husband and kids and grandson, as they have taken a battering this last year and they deserve better xx
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Only you can decide what to do Moonbeam. Some of stories I read on hear about GP's are scary.
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I will try the patch starting tonight but I know for sure I will not go to him again, thanks for help and kind remarks
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Remember it can take three months to work properly so don't expect miracles overnight or give up too soon.
Honeyb
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So sorry to hear about your unhelpful GP moonbeam. Those comments were out of order and yes a complaint is appropriate.
Dr Currie is a specialist gynae and while doctors may be offended - you are justified in seeking additional advice because you have been given incorrect advice ( ie re the effect of pills on your stomach as well as the dosage of the patches you were given before) in the past. GPs are general and ones with that attitude have no place in today's NHS as far as I am concerned.
I do hope the new regime suits you but if not and your doctor refused to give you what you would like or refuses to refer you then you should be able to take it further.
I quoted Dr Currie and printed out her e-mail when I challenged my doctor's advice that I should stop HRT pending an investigation into some bleeding. It worked. I am outspoken too but sometimes you have to be in order to be taken seriously.
Hurdity x
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as someone who has experience of medical regulation i feel this lady should raise her concerns otherwise how does that gp/practice improve. serious issues with doctors build up over years because patients feel that they shouldn't upset their doctor. much better to raise this.
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Hi I did mention Dr Currie and the fact I have printed the emails out but he just shrugged , said the Evorel 50 was the patch equivalent to Climaval 2mg , no to meno clinic felt about 2 inches tall , i definitely will not be seeing him again x
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I still stand by my comments on the fact that some doctors do not like being second guessed by another doctor unless they are the one who has sent a patient to a consultant.
As I said , Dr Currie will be well known by doctors who have an interest in meno but you could be quoting any random person if they don't.
It's very frustrating but we have to work with what we get.
Dr Curries advice is wonderful and points us in the right direction but unless she personally contacts each GP individually we just have to hope they may listen and many won't.
We can all feel vulnerable at this time but if you are not blessed with confidence then it can be very daunting.
Moonbeam basically got what she wanted. A transdermal HRT. Perhaps not the exact preparation but one that is just as acceptable.
A complaint after a first visit to a new GP at a new surgery would not do her any favours at all.
Honeyb
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I agree with what HB has said and is complete common sense.
We should not be saying that moombeam should complain to her Surgery its not our place, and as HB says it can be frustrating and daunting and not all women are so outspoken, but we do have to work with what is available to us.
Mombeam, give the patch a chance, if possible see another GP try to build up a relationship with them, and if you feel up to it mention your disappointing appointment with the other GP.
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I will give this patch a chance, got a bit of a blinding headache and some nausea at the minute but it could be just coincidence x
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It did make me feel a bit sick to start with but it soon passed.
Sure things will settle soon.
Honeyb
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I have taken a domperidone a hour ago and I will be taking some headache pills in a bit cause its rather blinding at the moment. As I have already been on a form of HRT for a year will it still take a few months for the patch to kick in ??
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No it shouldn't but any change needs to get used to.
Hope you feel better soon.
Honeyb
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Hi all again, just an update, been to the new GP and it didnt go well >:( >:( >:( he said the pills will not affect my stomach, wasnt interested in the emails from Dr Currie or what I want, he also said western women are prone to being stressed and HRT wont help, will not refer me to a meno clinic as my symptoms are under control, I asked for the gel and he gave me Evorel 50 patch >:(, just want to cry :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(, dont know what to do, just want to curl up and cry :( :( :( :(
I guess you need to be somewhat grateful that he didn't write you a prescription for valium. Isn't that what all us "stressed" western women need.... oh and a nice script for an AD too...... >:(
Don't be too upset about the patches. I'm on Estradot 50 and I love them. I am thinking about experimenting with reducing my dose a bit to see what happens, but it's just a thought at this stage.
If there is a certainty that you will never have to deal with the GP again, and you wanted to vent some frustration at him, you could post a letter directly to him marked "confidential" so no one else opens it or sees it.
I did that once, very early in my meno history, when the GP basically told me that all my problems were psychological and I would never feel any better until I addressed my "issues" WTF :o I never cry, but those comments, at a time when I really suffering, literally made me burst into tears.
I knew that I would never be returning to see him again, so I typed out a very carefully worded, but very much to the point, letter addressed specifically to him and marked with a big "CONFIDENTIAL" and left it at the reception desk.
I have no idea if he ever read it, and if he did it probably just went into the bin, but it gave me a great deal of satisfaction just writing it.
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Moonbeam, have just read on another thread that you had a hysterectomy a year ago, don't know if you have mentioned it before or I had forgotten, but it certainly makes a difference, did you keep your ovaries? even if you did, having when you are older won't guarantee that the ovaries will keep on working.
Hysterectomy can for some women be devastating on the body and is certainly not the same as natural menopause. As usual some women are OK and the body adapts others have problems getting the body balanced again.
I said in one of my posts to you that "millions of women go through menopause without added hormones" I would never had said that if I had realised you had had a hysterectomy" I apologise for that.
There are a couple good sites for ladies who have had hysterectomies, they certainly helped and supported me, it takes some ladies a year to recover, I certainly did not feel myself until my second year.
Good luck with your new patch moonbeam, if you still are feeling not well it might be a good idea to talk to ladies on the hysterectomy sites.
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I did ask for Estradot as he said he dont do the gel but told said Evorel is the only one they do, I do hope they work ok, woke up this morning with a headache but its very early days and I will persevere for a few months and pray they work for me, thanks for all your reply's ladies xx
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Silverlady, no I didnt keep my ovaries, the op went very well but and the HRT help with most of the menopausal symptoms but as I have got stomach problems you ladies and Dr Currie advised me that the pills were not helping things but my old and this new GP I saw Thursday said differently but he reluctantly gave me Evorel 50 patch , which is a start and I hope and pray will help with my moods and my stomach xx
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Trouble is with hysterectomy, the op does go well, its the aftercare (the effect that taking the ovaries has on the body) that is not so good, the surgeon does his very good job, you are in hospital for a few days and then sent home.
I felt wonderful for about a month and then I crashed even with a patch on and I kept my ovaries! I went onto Hormonin even better when I went on the nasal spray Aerodiol ( discontinued) then which perked me up and helped the second year.
14 years later and I am doing fine and feel well and healthy and at the moment not even on my 25 patch so there is hope.
It does help to talk to women who have not had a text book recovery from a complete hysterectomy.