Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: SueLW on December 12, 2018, 03:56:04 PM
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Hello everyone
I had thought that oestrogen and utrogestan was going to be the magic I needed. But now I'm finding I'm so very up and down in mood. Yesterday was a good day. Today isn't at all. Yesterday I had a bit of energy. Today I don't. I have been bleeding almost every day for weeks and weeks, I was fine in the summer when I had a scan. Fine for a few weeks on the gel and Utro. Then the bleeding started so I increased to vaginally every night from alternate nights. A couple of weeks when I didn't bleed, then back to it. Not as heavy as before but enough to be distressing.
I don't really know why I'm putting this up as I see the specialist tomorrow. But I'm so fed up with the regression. I'm using 3.5 pumps a day. Still my joints ache and my muscles are weak. No motivation at all today. None.
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Hello SueLW,
I'm sorry you're having mood swings. Bleeding almost every day for weeks and weeks is not an expected situation under this regimen. Are you on continuous Utrogestan now and still bleeding? Are you using Oestrogel or Oestrodose?
Conolly X
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Hi, yes daily Utrogestan vaginally and only the branded Oestrogel.
Plus Adrofem. I forgot that one. The bleeding is getting me down. Some days it's no more than heavy spotting, but often its much more than that. I have to wear a proper towel every day and they are making me sore. I was so hopeful. I am bloated to high heaven too. Yesterday, although I felt good yesterday, I felt very bloated, and as if I were about to come on with that sore, aching feeling. I didn't actually bleed in the day, but it started again at night.
I don't think Utrogestan is doing it for me. I also wonder which hormone is causing this horrible fluid bloating. Yesterday I was the old me. Today I'm the useless lump without a brain who just sits and does nothing. 3.5 pumps of gel should sort that out surely? I can feel it going in when I apply it. I feel a bit calmer when I first put it on.
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I assume you are post-menopause? For how long?
If I were in your position I would call GP. A continuous regimen is not supposed to give you bleeding or spotting, unless you are having problems absorbing both oestrogen and progesterone.
Are you on thyroid meds? They can mess up oestrogen levels. Sorry, I don't have time to read your previous posts right now.
Conolly X
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Well I am seeing the specialist tomorrow so she should be able to help hopefully. I just feel so miserable today, yet yesterday I felt like myself. I even felt the strength in my legs when I was walking for a little while. Normally my legs feel like lumps of lead and I can barely walk. I don't know how far into meno I am, but it's been a while. I have a Mirena coil for BC and once it came out I never bled again. I didn't bleed with it either.
Yes I am on thyroid meds and struggling to get them right as well. I have found some people saying that oestrogen makes the thyroid levels drop and others say the thyroid makes the oestrogen levels drop! I have been struggling for about 17 months now, to get thyroid levels up and not succeeding properly.
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Hello SueLW.
I have a similar story actually!
I have regently begun a long cycle of 12 days of Utrogestan and 3 pumps of Oestrogel and so far the results have not been good. My flushes have persisted along with my anxiety surges and although I don't have bloating I am now very windy! My moods are also changeable and yesterday I felt awful in the morning, calmer with some energy and enthusiasm in the afternoon then back to feeling tense in the evening. Like you I had high hopes for this regime and although it's early days I thought I would start to see some progress by now. For some reason I've never had aching muscles and my sleep isn't too bad but I still have all the problems I've always had and that is very disappointing.
Hopefully your specialist will help you tomorrow and there may infact be a simple solution for you. Now wouldn't that be nice lol.
Sorry I can't offer any constructive advice but you have my sympathy and I share your frustration!
Take care.
K.
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How is your diet overall? Lack of energy can cause moodiness. Add hormonal upheaval ..... have your symptoms eased at all?
Are you taking a list to the appt. tomorrow? Jot things down to discuss?
There are treatments to ease bleeding .......
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Well I am seeing the specialist tomorrow so she should be able to help hopefully. I just feel so miserable today, yet yesterday I felt like myself. I even felt the strength in my legs when I was walking for a little while. Normally my legs feel like lumps of lead and I can barely walk. I don't know how far into meno I am, but it's been a while. I have a Mirena coil for BC and once it came out I never bled again. I didn't bleed with it either.
Yes I am on thyroid meds and struggling to get them right as well. I have found some people saying that oestrogen makes the thyroid levels drop and others say the thyroid makes the oestrogen levels drop! I have been struggling for about 17 months now, to get thyroid levels up and not succeeding properly.
From the British Thyroid Foundation:
'Some women who experience severe menopausal symptoms due to oestrogen deficiency may be prescribed HRT. Women who have no pre-existing thyroid disorder and have normal thyroid function usually adapt well to the effects of the HRT and their thyroid function remains normal. However, women with pre-existing hypothyroidism treated with thyroxine, may require an increase in their thyroxine dose after starting HRT. Therefore it is useful for thyroid function tests to be re-checked after starting HRT.'
So you will need an increase in your thyroxine whilst on HRT.
Regarding the erratic bleeding...If you had been on the coil that means you had a lot of progesterone in your system and maybe you're still having levonorgestrel withdrawal symptoms https://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/life-504/sexual-health-contraception-48/926805-mirena-coil-removal-side-effects-etc.html (https://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/life-504/sexual-health-contraception-48/926805-mirena-coil-removal-side-effects-etc.html)
Conolly X
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Well I am seeing the specialist tomorrow so she should be able to help hopefully. I just feel so miserable today, yet yesterday I felt like myself. I even felt the strength in my legs when I was walking for a little while. Normally my legs feel like lumps of lead and I can barely walk. I don't know how far into meno I am, but it's been a while. I have a Mirena coil for BC and once it came out I never bled again. I didn't bleed with it either.
Yes I am on thyroid meds and struggling to get them right as well. I have found some people saying that oestrogen makes the thyroid levels drop and others say the thyroid makes the oestrogen levels drop! I have been struggling for about 17 months now, to get thyroid levels up and not succeeding properly.
From the British Thyroid Foundation:
'Some women who experience severe menopausal symptoms due to oestrogen deficiency may be prescribed HRT. Women who have no pre-existing thyroid disorder and have normal thyroid function usually adapt well to the effects of the HRT and their thyroid function remains normal. However, women with pre-existing hypothyroidism treated with thyroxine, may require an increase in their thyroxine dose after starting HRT. Therefore it is useful for thyroid function tests to be re-checked after starting HRT.'
So you will need an increase in your thyroxine whilst on HRT.
Regarding the erratic bleeding...If you had been on the coil that means you had a lot of progesterone in your system and maybe you're still having levonorgestrel withdrawal symptoms https://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/life-504/sexual-health-contraception-48/926805-mirena-coil-removal-side-effects-etc.html (https://www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/life-504/sexual-health-contraception-48/926805-mirena-coil-removal-side-effects-etc.html)
Conolly X
I've never been stable on thyroid meds yet. Still working my way up, but the improvements in blood marker levels have been very slow indeed and last time showed a drop in free T3 and rise in free T4, not what anyone needs. I am retesting every 8 weeks and have been all year. I have just started to add a little privately sourced T3, that can really ramp up my anxiety, but also can be very calming and give me some concentration. I first started thyroxine when I was using compounded oestrogen and progesterone cream. Earlier in the summer when my levels were checked they were very low, the cream seemed to have stopped working. Then I switched to the gel and Utrogestan and worked my dose up. The first 2.5 months I felt a lot better. But this last 6 weeks hasn't been good at all. So what I'm trying to say is that my thyroid meds were not making me feel any better when I had very low levels of oestrogen either.
The coil was many years ago no. No chance its affecting me now. I was wondering about having another one fitted.
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How is your diet overall? Lack of energy can cause moodiness. Add hormonal upheaval ..... have your symptoms eased at all?
Are you taking a list to the appt. tomorrow? Jot things down to discuss?
There are treatments to ease bleeding .......
I have a list!
Diet is up and down. I feel too low some days to bother, but my husband cooks a lovely dinner from fresh organic ingredients every night and I take all the supplements I need.
Perhaps I'm just using too much gel. I hope she runs a blood test tomorrow so that I can see what level I'm at. I was just at 44 for oestrogen when I started the gel in September.
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If you felt ok on the coil maybe you should go back to it. Why have you changed it for Utrogestan?
Conolly X
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If you felt ok on the coil maybe you should go back to it. Why have you changed it for Utrogestan?
Conolly X
The coil was years ago for birth control. It's been out for years. I had at least 2 years with no HRT then started on compounded HRT mixes of one sort or another (as doctor treating me couldn't find one that would work for me). I struggled with that for 3 years. Switched doctors this September and was started on the more conventional gel and Utrogestan treatment. It seemed to go well. I thought I was going to be one of those thanking her for giving me my life back. I jumped the gun. My life changed beyond recognition nearly 7 years ago. The last 6 weeks or so I've started to get more mood swings and they are big swings. The bleeding has been more than annoying too. Yesterday I just got on with life and had a good day (it was my husband's birthday). Today I am emotionless (except for upset) unmotivated, limp and grey feeling.
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I see, thank you.
I think changing meds is always a challenge for our bodies. Sometimes it's just a matter of time or adjusting doses. Sometimes you just don't get along with them and have to try other options. Trial and error, and we're the guinea pigs, unfortunately.
I hope you have a useful appointment tomorrow and can sort things out, including your thyroid issues.
Conolly X
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Hi SueLW – sorry to hear you are feeling rough and up and down
If you have ongoing bleeding then this means that in the absence of any uterine problems the ratio of oestrogen to progesterone is not right for you on this continuous regime. Usually it means that the there is insufficient progesterone for the oestrogen dose and if this happens your lining will sometimes shed spontaneously – although there can be a 6 month settling in period of time on any continuous combined HRT when some bleeding or spotting can be expected.
It also depends on how long you were taking the lower dose progesterone ( you said you were using alternate nights) – if this was insufficient then your womb lining could have built up and now that you are increasing the prog it is coming away – part of the settling in.
Are you using 100 mg per night? This continuous progesterone could also be responsible for the ongoing bloating and mood issues – progesterone is well known for causing this and is why some women prefer a cycle – due to ongoing progestogenic side effects. This is the problem with finding the right balance – you want sufficient oestrogen for your symptoms but if so you need more prog!
Also maybe the daily application of gel is not suiting you and you could be getting daily spikes and maybe crashes? Have you tried patches? Might be worth a go?
In terms of the thyroid – a paper I read and have quoted several times on here found that on oral oestrogen thyroid levels were affected (in women who took thyroid meds) but not with transdermal HRT – although since the metabolism of both seem to be related it would be worth checking your thyroid levels too – I know very little about thyroid though! Here is the link to the abstract: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15142374 Also menopausal status may well affect your need for thyroid meds – but I expect you know this!
Just a few ideas....
Hurdity x
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Thank you Hurdity.
Maybe I just need to give it longer then. It's 8 weeks now on the full 100 every night. Prior to that it was every other night for the preceding 12 weeks. I wasn't using 3.5 pumps a day for all of those 12 weeks though. I built it up. The bloating is bad. And if I'm getting mood swings like this now I can't be on enough oestrogen. I might need to go to a cycle or a coil. I've never had oestrogen on it's own. It's aways been with progesterone. Lots to talk about tomorrow.
The thyroid paper; I spoke to a hormone doctor on FB just yesterday about this. She said that they used to think this, and Studd believes it. But she doesn't because she's long term thyroid medicated and noticed a big drop in her thyroid hormones when she started oestrogen gel herself. She has now observed this in "some" of her patients. Not all. Others talk about it too. The answer is to up the thyroid meds, but as I had not reached a steady dose myself its all still a work in progress. My T4 level went up at the last blood test but the vital T3 level went down. Now I'm trying to add in some T3, but that has problems and I've had to source it myself and am self-treating so it's not great.
I will see how tomorrow goes and hopefully something good will come of it. I don't feel as if I have enough oestrogen to be honest. I have tried patches in the past, but not for a while. Got to find one that sticks!
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Hello again SueLW.
I feel for you. It's difficult enough to balance our sex hormones without the added complication of thyroid meds.
I assume your appointment is to discuss HRT but as thyroid problems are common your specialist may have encountered your situation before and have some advice for you. A friend of mine was told by her pharmacist that the most requested meds for middle aged women were ADs and Thyroxin!
I'm sorry that I can't add anything constructive to the excellent replies you've already had but I do wish you well for tomorrow and please let us know how you get on.
Take care.
K.