Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Alternative Therapies => Topic started by: Countrygirl on March 03, 2019, 02:53:57 PM
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Was surfing the web last night as was unable to sleep, looking for answers and several times vitamin D deficiency was mentioned in exasperating pre existing conditions like anxiety, low mood and exhaustion.
I just wondered if anyone has any experience with this as my drs don't blood test for vit D x
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I've been taking vitamin d this winter for the first time as I noticed how well I felt this summer with all the hot sunny weather we had and also im always better on holiday abroad. Around October I started feeling low and had aching joints and after taking vitamin d for a few weeks I definitely felt an improvement. The NHS recommend we all take vit d during the winter months in the UK now, I'll take it until around April.
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Low VitD levels caused me to get tired very quickly. I would do 20 mins. weeding then have to sit still for about 2 hours. Blood tests showed that my levels were low, I had begun to wonder if I had something more serious :-\. Appropriate capsules topped up the levels.
I think if the body is out of kilter it can affect every part of us ::).
Your GP should do blood test for VitD. Why wouldn't they :-\. It should be part of a routine blood screening. If they do refuse, ask at your local Pharmacy to see how to get it done, sometimes Lloyds offer different tests to the public.
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This is such an important vitamin not to become deficient in! As far as I understand it the NHS recommended that we should all consider taking a supplement in winter (unless this advice has changed). This is a chance to look at your lifestyle and diet and sunshine in summer and winter. For example I get a lot of sun in the summer months from when it starts to when it ends, and although I'm getting on in age (re old skin) am confident I build up enough stores to last me most of the winter. I also eat lots of fish including oily fish and vit D is contained in (added to) lots of foods. I also swig a spoonful of cod-liver oil now and again about once a week from about Nov to March ( well I've stopped now cos I went to Spain for a week and it was v sunny so have built up my stores again). The thing is it's personal to you - also dependent on your skin colour and where you live in the world in relation to this.
If you don't eat lots of vit D rich food, don't get out in the sun much and haven't taken anything like cod-liver oil etc then you are most likely to be sub-optimal now if not deficient - this is the time of year ( last week aside) when most people's levels will be at their lowest.
By the way following the regime that I do above my levels were tested a couple of years agpo on late March ( no heat wave and no trip abroad) and my levels were 90 something so I know that for me what I'm doing is right - but may not be for you :).
Hurdity x
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Being low in vit D does affect your energy levels. From what I understand, it is used in the cell to bind the thyroxine to the receptors on the endoplasmic reticulum inside the cell which is where the energy is produced.
So the symptoms will be similar to low thyroxine.
It is definitely worth taking 25ug/1000iu daily over winter.
To get the min recommeded dose from food (appx 10ug/400iu) you need the equivalent of three good meals of oily fish per week. It is still worth eating plenty fish too for the omega 3s (a good balance of these is supposed to help the brain - not sure where that went as it was a 'thing' a few years ago - you do need it from food rather than supplements if you can and less omega 6 (chicken and sunflower oil)) and the calcium.
Toasted, mashed sardines on toasted muffins is nice and you can make it extra good by using wholemeal muffins.
I think I may have mentioned Pilchard Curry before - it is very cheap but a bit of an acquired taste. ;D
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;D ..... do you get every :catscratch: :cat88: :cat48: in the district at the kitchen door :D
Pilchards in tomato sauces from the tin either cold or warmed on hot toast with lots of pepper can be tasty too.
I sat out in the :sunny: Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday last week 8)
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They say everyone in England are Vit d deficient. On my menopause journey I was so exhausted and joint pain my dr ran some tests and my Vit d came back insufficient. To be good you need to be 125 but drs think anything over 50 is sufficient. My mum and my sister have all come up really low! I thought as I'm dark hair and skin that tan easily I would be ok but it's the opposite the darker you are the harder it is to get Vit d. I take a spray everyday winter and summer to top mine up. Anyone wanting more info go on Vit d council or fb page Vit d uk.
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CLKD - that explains the lurking moggies. I thought they were just after the birds ;D
Although I saw the most evil one with a rat, so it has sort of been forgiven, and there are fewer woodpigeons to **** down my windows.
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;D
We haven't had a rat for years. Pigeons. Yep. Pretty collared doves. Yep.
NHS will test and prescribe 3 months VitD capsules if required. They would rather prescribe for specifics. After that 1 buys the capsules if symptoms return.
I've been outside again today hanging out laundry. Hopefully I will be able to get into the garden this week.
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It was only one - I thought it was a big mouse, and then I realised..... ::)
My GP sent the diagnosis as insufficient in a letter (actually, just deficient with no numbers - had to ring and ask and it wasn't quite as desperate as I thought) and the letter came with a list of suitable supplements. It got one from Sainsbugs which did the trick, but there is some discussion as to whether you need K2 and magnesium with it. It is best eaten with a meal as it is fat soluble.
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Gp will only test once a year and give you high dose to take once or twice a week. If you read up on Vit d it needs to be taken daily with k2 and magnesuim. I use the Betteryou sprays they also do test for £34. I to have chronic digestion problems and my mum has colitis its very linked to other conditions.
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No-one is disputing how vitally important vitamin D is – but statements like “Most of the population need a Vit D supplementâ€, “I think that getting the correct amount of Vit D from the sunshine we get in this country is difficult if not impossibleâ€, “They say everyone in England are Vit d deficientâ€, and “It's not easy to get it in sufficient quantities from diet and sun†are very sweeping!
As I stated in my post the current guidelines ( unless they have changed and NHS is out of date – which it can be!) are that everyone should CONSIDER taking a supplement and I totally agree with that!
Whoever “they†are - they must be wrong – how can everyone be vit D deficient in England?! Where is the evidence? If you have digestive problems then this could be the reason for winter deficiency.
A recent article on BBS news website regarding a study last year can be found here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45736465 . This suggest that in the winter months 1 in 5 adults become deficient. Also how is deficiency defined? – I agree that there is a difference between being deficient and sub-optimal – but I would suggest sub-optimal levels could be treated with a combination of diet and an intermittent supplement eg once a week? Vitamin D is stored in the liver so it doesn't necessarily need to be taken daily (unless deficient).
It is recognised that certain high risks groups WILL become deficient – insufficient obtained from diet by those with digestive conditions (Crohn's disease etc) and those who are taking PPI's, the elderly (over 80's maybe?) If I was in these categories I would definitely be taking a regular daily supplement.
“I think that getting the correct amount of Vit D from the sunshine we get in this country is difficult if not impossible†– the point about this is the difference between – “are we getting enough from sunshine?†and “is it possible to get enough from sunshine?â€. The answer to the first may well be no at present for more people than necessary, but the answer to the second will depend on - as I said before – our skin colour and behaviour/lifestyle and the latitude we live in. As I've said before we are biologically adapted to get sufficient vit D in spring and summer and for these stores to last through most of the winter months in conjunction with diet – we wouldn't be here otherwise. Of course if you use a lot of sunscreen then you won't make it (vit D) – but if you have a very fair skin which burns easily then you will make sufficient vit D at a lower intensity of sunlight so you can expose yourself to the sun way before it gets tso intense that you will burn. That's the point. It's not a question of skin cancer or vit D – you can expose your skin at the right time for your skin and cover up when it gets too hot. If you have a very dark skin and/or cover up for cultural reasons then you will almost certainly need a daily supplement - even in summer - in the UK.
As for the wrinkled prune look – speak for yourself Hummdinger – I'm neither wrinkly nor a prune and spend lots of time in the sun – and actually, personally I would rather be a bit wrinkly and prune-like and have a healthy tanned skin with naturally obtained vit D than take loads of supplements!
We should all consider what is right for us and as per the guidelines and those who feel they need/want to take a supplement, or tests have shown they are deficient – then of course – but don't tell me I can't get most of what I need by other means (sunshine and diet)!!! The swig of cod liver oil I take now and again in late winter is just an added insurance really.....because it is such a important vitamin.
Apart from the high risk groups I am saying surely there is no need to become deficient (as it is currently defined) and it is a great opportunity to examine lifestyle and diet...?
Pilchards? I'll stick to sardines and smoked salmon :)
These are the vit D rich foods according to the BBC site:
• oily fish
• red meat
• liver
• egg yolks
• fortified foods, such as most fat spreads and some breakfast cereals
Countrygirl - if you have a fair skin then get out in the sun earlier for a short time whenever you can, before it is high enough to burn and then apply sunscreen. Sounds like you are doing the right thing - and also if you feel better and more energetic in the summer you are probably making quite a bit of it then....eggs? (I have one for brekka every day!).
I'm interested in any studies about this....
Oops got a bit carried away there!
Hurdity x
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I was raised in the early 1960s. We never creamed up other than the odd slap of Nivea ........ we did have hats and I remember long hot Summers ;D. Funny, I can't remember what I did on Friday though ::). We spent hours on the beach or in the garden, playing. Dad built a sand-pit, we had swings, roller skates ...... but no foreign holidays.
By mid-Feb my hands will be brown. That's from walking or gardening. Not only sunshine but we need to watch wind, as it is drying which can damage skin. I tend to use after-sun lotion too, as it's cooling.
Not many of my friends require VitD. That's 7 out of 8 [me being the 1 who required it]. Mum did for a while and I have asked the Home to encourage her to take her capsules as they rarely get into the garden. Those who are desk bound, in care homes or in hospital for long-term care; children that don't get into the playground; those cultures that are covered from top to toe ......... should all be aware. Certainly rickets was a problem a few years ago in those cultures that cover up ........ a condition that hadn't been seen since the 1950s :o.
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My capsules are:
Colecalciferol 3,200IU with maize Oil, Gelatin, Glycerol, E141, E321 - if anyone knows what the latter might be :-\
Nowt about needing to take any other vitamins though I am aware that some supplements need others to assist 'take up'. 1 daily for 12 months. (Sept. 2017). I took it for 6 weeks then felt better, then went away without the capsules ::) and have n't required them since. To hand if needs B.
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Vit D is the last thing I considered I could be deficient with. I walk outside at least an hour a day all year round and am out all the time in the summer. I also usually enjoy a week holiday in the sunshine in Nov/Dec.
I had never had my levels tested until I saw a new GP in January who ordered it and to my surprise, it came back at 45. Nit massively low but still so.
I've been supplementing for about a month and initially felt even worse but for the last week, I'm start to feel a bit more like myself. Thinking back, I do always feel worse in the winter, energy and mood wise but then doesn't every one!
Thankfully got dexa scan and bone density came back fine. It dies show though that for some reason it's possible to be low in it D despite plenty of sunshine in the summer and still out day in the winter as clearly I'm then all covered!
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A bone scan should be done on pelvis and hips ;)
Both Mum [92] and myself [not that old] spend a lot of time outdoors but we were both in 2017 low in VitD levels. Capsules certainly helped.
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I quite agree Hummdinger that we should all be aware of the potnetial for sunburn - I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise? That netdoctor info is probably out of date now (2016) although probably rightly erring on the side of caution because some people really are stupid enough to keep themselves covered up for most of the year and then as soon as there is a heatwave, roast themselves for long periods of time – you do see them every year!
Current thinking as I understand it, is that people should expose themselves to the sun at a time of day and length of time that is suitable for their skin type (like mentioned in the netdoctor guidance - knowing your skin type is crucial). Like I said – if you have very fair skin for example you would be able to make vit D more efficiently in shorter periods of time at a time of day when the sun is not strong, and cover up or use sunscreen the rest of the time. In any case the sun starts to get strong enough very soon ( it actually was last week!) so even fair-skinned people could have exposed their skin for a decent amount of time without sunscreen, make vit D and not get burnt.
The Royal Osteoporosis society give guidelines on sun exposure here:
https://theros.org.uk/information-and-support/looking-after-your-bones/vitamin-d/
“In the UK, your skin can only get vitamin D from sunlight between April and September.
During this time, it's recommended you expose your skin to direct sunlight for around 10 minutes, once or twice per day.
There are some important things to remember when getting vitamin D from the sun:
• If the weather is cloudy, it may take longer to produce the same levels of vitamin D as on a sunny day
• It's important that you go outside - glass blocks the sun's rays
• If you have darker skin, it produces vitamin D at a slower rate, so you need to spend longer in the sun to get the amount your body needs
• Using sunblock or high factor sunscreen stops the sun's rays reaching your skin, which reduces the amount of vitamin D that your body makesâ€
... as well as cautioning against burning the skin here:
“It's important to give your skin short periods in the sun, when you haven't applied sunscreen. But don't be tempted to avoid wearing sunscreen to increase your vitamin D levels. You may do more damage to your skin than good for your bones.
To protect your skin, aim to get your vitamin D from the sun while you're doing short outdoor tasks, like:
• hanging out the washing
• pulling up weeds
• walking to the shops
If your skin is exposed to the sun for more than 10 minutes, always apply a sunblock or sunscreen. And avoid exposing your skin to direct sunlight when the sun it at its strongest, in the middle of the day.â€
ie not blanket sun-screening and taking supplements instead.
The latest guidelines from the Royal Osteoporosis Society published in November 2018 regarding vit D levels is:
“Following review of the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition (SACN) and Institute of Medicine (IOM) reports, we propose that the following vitamin D thresholds are adopted by UK practitioners in respect to bone health:–plasma 25(OH)D < 25 nmol/L is deficient–plasma 25(OH)D of 25–50 nmol/L may be inadequate in some people–plasma 25(OH)D > 50 nmol/L is sufficient for almost the whole populationâ€
https://theros.org.uk/media/100231/nos_vitamin_d_and_bone_-health_in_adults_web.pdf
They also give lots of info about dosing but no mention of Boron or Vit K
They recommend that people with levels of over 50 – should maintain vit D levels by safe sun exposure and diet. They say that this is sufficient for most of the population although personally I would want my level to be higher than just sufficient - which when tested it was almost double this in March at the lowest time of year.
Hope this information is helpful!
Hurdity x
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Better to get natural VitD from sun-light than taking minerals which may/not give the required amount. By mid-Feb., simply by walking or gardening, my hands and face are brown. The rest of my skin hardly gets to C the light of day ;D. It is said by dermatologists that we should get out B4 10.00 a.m. and after 4.30 p.m. when the sun is going down. This avoids the intensity of burning sunshine. Also we have to remember [I probably said already :-\] a drying wind. I have to remind DH to put lots of cream on when he's fishing: back of the neck, ears, face, scalp where he's thinning ;) :-X ..........
The last time that I got sun-burnt - in the early 1980s - I was laying under a brolly against sun and wind but my feet were outside the shade :o I can remember how tight my ankles felt as I tried to walk the 2 miles back across the hard sand. NEVER again! It took a lot of water to rehydrate via the gut and lots of cooling cream with ankles elevated.
Yet my sister in Law can lay out in the hottest sunshine and never burns, never puts protective cream on :o even when we have explained how awful skin cancer can be.
I don't like the 'only get vitamin D from sunlight between April and September' .......... has anyone actually measured this? What about people that are out doors most of the year, after all we get lovely sunshine earlier and later than expected across the UK.
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I take a vitamin D supplement during the winter because my levels get low...but it still never works as well as getting actual sunshine for me. Just waiting for winter to end and not having 90% of my body covered to stay warm.
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I'm back in thick socks and a jumper today! Last week we were in short sleeves ::).
As I can't tolerate heat I tend to be out and about early and evenings.
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I don't like the 'only get vitamin D from sunlight between April and September' .......... has anyone actually measured this? What about people that are out doors most of the year, after all we get lovely sunshine earlier and later than expected across the UK.
The sunlight that you need to make vitamin D is at the short end of the spectrum - beyond violet.
The shorter wavelengths get absorbed on the way through the earth's atmosphere.
If you draw the earth as a circle, put another circle around it for the atmosphere, and mark a spot on the earth's surface for you, then if the sun is directly above you then that is the shortest distance through the atmosphere. If it comes from an angle (like it does when the sun is lower at the beginning and the end of the day and in the winter) then the light will have to go a longer distance through the atmosphere until it reaches you and will lose more light at the short end of the spectrum.
This is why the sky and the sun go red in the evening.
As a rule of thumb, if your shadow is shorter than you are, then the sun is at the right angle to get enough UVB rays.
10-20 minutes or so is enough, depending on your skin colour. It is the same part of the spectrum that causes cancer, so don't stay there long enough to burn!
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WOW we are a Mine of Info on here, that's for sure. :thankyou: now, is that physics, biology ......
I've nipped in and out several times to our garden but it is really cold!! Sun is out, stiff breeze.
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Physics, geography, environmental science, biology - they all cover it from different angles ;D
It is too cold here too and the wind makes my house colder BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :sunny:
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:D put another jumper on?
Sun is pouring into the lounge but the wind is sharp. Straight from the Urals :o. :o
At least the sky is blue. Laundry inside, no need to go out any more today but I may have another wander round B4 dusk.
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I have some flowers to plant in a tub, but I may leave it another day ::)
Not the best of weather for vitamin D production :-\
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The wind suddenly dropped so I've been outside again. Feeding the birds. Chilly but hazy.
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Have had several days of sunshine and weather warm enough to not need a coat so could actually have some skin exposed! It's been heavenly....still can tell how much better it is for me than a supplement. Looks like we may have one more day of the lovely sunshine before the clouds set back in. And then grey skies for another week or more. :'( I wish spring would officially get here!
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Puts a bounce in your step, doesn't it :bouncing:
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It certainly does, DH and I sat in warm sunshine with a cuppa at 3.00 p.m.. Hopefully it will be nice tomorrow, I need to encourage him to put lotion on as he will be fishing: a mix of sun and wind ::)