Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: lesley998 on August 08, 2017, 04:21:42 PM
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Hello everyone
I've posted a number of times about the terrible morning anxiety (morning dreads) and panic I have been having on and off since starting peri abiut six years ago. Things are starting to get much, much worse and I genuinely fear for myself. I've realised that it come in cycles of around two to three months (but getting shorter) then it starts all over again. In the middle of the cycle is the worst most debilitating anxiety/depression I have ever felt. I call it The Madness. How original. The Madness lasts around three weeks.
It starts with carb, chocolate cravings but feeling mentally well. Then I start waking with full on cortisol rushes, crippling anxiety, nervous stomach, paralysing fear over nothing. I have nothing to be frightened or depressed about. This lasts up to three weeks. Then I slowly come out of it and the cycle starts all over again.
It's so hard to explain how this feels. I get the feeling my GP thinks I am a neurotic, over indulged, dried up old woman and I've stopped asking his advice. Im thinking about consulting someone privately but don't know whether I should see a gynocologist, endocrinologist, or psychiatrist. I'm posting below what I wrote in my meno diary to see if anyone can identify...
"Waking with severe anxiety again. Feels better as day goes on. I've started calling it TheM. For The Madness. I literally feel like I am going mad. Normal day to day life has me cradling my head in my hands and wanting to die, and if there is a real problem or stress I almost feel I will explode with it all. I Wake in the morning, snap wide awake and can feel something (adrenaline/cortisol?) starting...then moving up a gear, churning nervous stomach heart pounding, butterflies in stomach, wriggling legs and feet, mind fog, terrified of the day ahead. It's all I can do to get out of bed and get on with the day. I feel completely paralysed. Feel like I desperately want to be asleep again, to be unconscious, be unaware of life, to die. If I could just sit, rocking back and forth staring at the wall I would, but that wouldn't stop the awful fear in my mind. I can't bear it. I want to be unconscious, dead. Everything in life is a problem, even getting up, getting out of bed, is insurmountable, the end of the world. I fall out with my family. Life is too difficult. It has no meaning, no hope, no joy I have no future I just want to die. I'm just so sad all the time. Like a sad zombie. I can't remember the last time I felt normal or happy. I just feel permanently tired and depressed, everything is a supreme effort and I don't enjoy anything. "
When I am out of the Madness, I feel fine. I cope, I am normal, I'm fine. Apart from constantly worrying about the Madness, and when it will come back. I sound like a complete nutter.
Genuinely, if there is anyone here who can help please advise.
thanks x
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I can give you a hug. Deep anxiety is dreadful. :bighug:
My GP gave me a betablocka to ease anxiety surges which I take - 20mg at night and 20mg with breakfast. I was already on an anti-depreeant medication. Also I have an emergency drug to swallow when anxiety floors me. Otherwise.
One doesn't have to have situations that cause depression or anxiety. It happens. Naturally but it can be awful >:(. Even knowing that it's flight/fight response doesn't stop my automatic nervous system kicking in.
I would suggest that you begin eating every 3 hours, even in the night if you wake. The idea is not to increase your over-all food intake but to spread it over 24 hours. I have emergency foods:
When really bad:
Dextrose tablets - I chew 2 B4 getting out of bed each morning to give me a boost
dried fruits and nuts to nibble - the trick for me is to eat B4 I'm hungry to stop that sudden lurch which causes intense nausea
Bananas for slow release energy
Energy bars - with peanuts, chocolate, muesli-type - for the moment immediately my body feels hungry
Dry toast
When I feel better:
Good quality muesli with a little milk for breakfast
Thinly sliced chicken with lots of veg.: red/yellow peppers chopped, frozen peas, ginger, garlic: on a bed of freshly boiled rice
Chicken curry - home made; a good filler and can be eaten hot or cold
Right my grub is ready. I don't think that any amount of HRT will lift you.
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Thank you CLKD. You're always first to offer a hug and advice, and I appreciate it more than you know.
I'm really scared sometimes. I don't know if you remember but my sister took her own life a few years ago and sometimes....well, I just get very low. I probably need to see a psychiatrist. Even though my GP knows the family history I think he thinks I am attention seeking. I'm really not. I'm probably paranoid though :D
Thanks
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I can't tell you how to fix it but you describe it beautifully. I definitely relate to the snapping awake, have had the morning cortisol rushes and nervous tummy, irrational paralysing fear. The only thing I'm lacking here is the wanting to die. Instead I cry because I so badly want to live, and the madness doesn't feel like living to me. I haven't pinned exactly what kind of cycle it runs, but I'm learning to accept that it's here when it arrives and that it will go. Basically, I throw up my hands and try to trudge through until it lifts. I believe, and my husband confirms with his observations, that it isn't as intense as it was in the beginning, but that may be in part due to the fact that my family and friends now are aware and accept that I crash once in awhile, so I don't worry as much now about completing my obligations. Also I'm getting better at seeing it as almost it's own entity, I love that you named it The Madness! So when I'm feeling it, I try to look at it with curiosity rather than be consumed by it, like "Oh this is interesting, I feel a little strange! I wonder why that is!" It doesn't make it any less exhausting, but it does help me to not let it bog down my mood.
I'll ask because I'm sure someone will, have you tried antidepressants? I have not because my gp thinks I won't react well to them, but when I'm in the madness I sometimes think to beg him for a prescription. It's clearly physiological, but sometimes I think the AD would at least give relief from the mental effects of this exhausting change.
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Why does your GP think you won't react well Lizab? Unless you try - I had at least 4 different ADs in the early 1990s until we found one that worked! For me it was the nausea that prohibited continuing with each. My AD isn't a cure as I wake some mornings 'hung over' ::) but it's better than when I was unable to move through deep fear. Pre-hensile fear :'(. Beyond begin scared.
I don't think that HRT will work as quickly as a dedicated anti-anxiety medication. You could Lesley998, see your Practice Nurse or your local Pharmacist for advice, B4 approaching your GP. I don't really know how either of you have 'hung on'!
Don't forget that the Samaritans and Mind services are available too. I found the latter really supportive when my friend killed himself nearly 2 years ago, it triggered something in me "If he can do it, then what hope have I of hanging on" :-\. I upped my ADs for 3 months which helped.
HRT can sometimes ease symptoms and sometimes lift anxiety and/or depression. But it may take longer to kick in than a dedicated medication will crikey I said that already :-\. Once the brain and gut have settled - and the gut is the 2nd brain - one can consider if HRT would help any menopause symptoms.
Take a list with you, in fact, copy, paste and print off what you have typed to us. Ask for medication and an appt. to a Psychiatrist in the first instance who is able to prescribe if what your GP has suggested, isn't helping.
I still live half a day at a time, try to eat B4 my body is hungry and exercise as much as possible, usually gardening. If really ill in the mornings I go into automatic pilot, pottering around house and garden until breakfast kicks in.
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Hi lesley998
I am so sorry to read about how you feel.
It really sounds like the hormonal surges of peri-menopause are effecting you in an extreme way. The carb cravings and possible low blood sugar feelings are absolutely typical - I got these feelings during the second half of my cycle even before I was properly peri-menopausal - as part of a more extreme pms. Ever since then I have had to watch what I eat in relation to exercise etc so that I keep my blood sugar stable. CLKD has given you some good advice about eating - the only thing I would try not to get into the habit of is the Dextrose as this can make things worse. However having said that during the period I'm talking about - I used to carry Dextrose because I did get reactive hypoglycaemia - symptoms of sudden low blood sugar when out sometimes ( the shakes, sweats, intense sugar cravings). However now I know it is important to eat a really good breakfast, reduce sugar and refined carbs and eat more protein.
What are you periods doing now - have you skipped many - is your cycle length long. Do you take HRT?
Depending on the answer to your questions HRT may well help if you haven't started it already and especially if you are experiencing other symptoms such as flushes and sweats.
I would definitely get help as soon as possible if you are feeling like this. My view is that you probably don't need a psychiatrist if you have never suffered depression and don't feel you have any reason to feel like this - hormones are powerful things and can affect the mind deeply. I would get along to the GP asap and see what s/he says. Try to find one in the practice who understands menopause and is not likely to think you are a "neurotic, over indulged, dried up old woman" - your feelings are real and need treatment whether through hormones or something else!
Have a read of the website http://www.nomorepanic.co.uk/articles which has so much information and advice, and also have a look at Studd's website: http://www.studd.co.uk/reproductivedepression.php and all the associated tabs - who is a strong proponent of using high doses of oestrogen to alleviate hormonal depression.
Above all please do go and seek help as soon as possible. No-one should have to suffer like this - and you don't sound like a nutter! There is another member here - I hope she won't mind my mentioning her name - who felt as you do - completely OK for part of the month and in the depths of despair at others. She is GypsyRoseLee and you might like to look at her posts?
In the meantime keep posting - however you feel - daily if you like - on here - as your thread - and there will always be someone to respond if you need it.
Hurdity x
Edit - I just wrote the above and while writing it I see your reply to CLKD. You may well have unresolved issues of grief and shock as a result of your sister's suicide and going through the menopause will make you less able to cope with feelings like this. I would urge you also to seek some help perhaps to talk through your feelings if possible?
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Dextrose has NEVER made my symptoms worse and I've suffered since the mid 1980s.
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Lizab
What a wonderful post. Thank you. One of the main reasons for my finally posting the full awfulness of these episodes (as opposed to my usual timid post asking if anyone ever gets the morning dreads) is because I dont think I can bear to have to face this for the rest of my life, and of course I wonder if it really is all hormonal, and has an organic root...and who better to ask than other ladies in the similar rocky hormonal boat. I don't feel quite so alone with it after reading your post. I don't want to die really. When I'm well, I love life, I love my life. But when I'm in the Madness, I really do have constant, morbid thoughts of death and dying and wanting to die. I just want to not be conscious of it anymore, it makes me feel so bad. Fearful, doom laden, terrified, scared, and most of all scared that I am going mad. I've always been a bit of an over thinker, a bit stressed, lived on my nerves as they say. My mother always said she had trouble with her 'nerves'. I had a different sort of melt down a few years ago and I've been on Prozac for about fifteen years. Maybe it's time for a change.
Thanks.
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;D sorry, Prozac made me :rant:. I have been lucky in that each AD has lasted for 6+ years .... before my brain poops out and another type is required. In the 1990s I used Valium as necessary: usually the night B4 an event that I couldn't get out of. If necessary I knew that I could take another during the day to ease me through, it made me muggy and less than sociable but it did stop any intense anxiety.
I never wanted to die: I wanted to sleep until someone woke me to say that I would never feel anxious again. Appropriate medication has helped. I would never have considered HRT as a means to controlling anxiety or depression, I had both pre-menstrual for years and only ADs etc. eased symptoms.
You are not going mad. Hormonal upheaval can cause all kinds of symptoms. For which there are appropriate medications.
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CLKD- I tried an AD years ago for "anxiety" and reacted terribly. One dose and I was up all night unable to sleep, sweating, tingling scalp, diarrhea, and generally feeling weird. I felt like a zombie for 2 days after. My gp at the time suggested I stay with it and those symptoms would subside. No thanks! Interestingly with hindsight, all my "anxiety" symptoms of that time period miraculously disappeared when I had my Mirena removed. My mother insisted it was the root of my problems while my gp and gyne both insisted that was impossible. The positive takeaway for me is that I've in a way been down this road before, the downside being that this time I don't have a Mirena to remove and make it all better. Anyway, my current gp said my previous reaction to AD was extreme and he wasn't optimistic about finding one that would suit me. I'm hanging in there, but not feeling strong enough to experiment looking for the right one.
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Hurdity - thank you so much. You gave me some great advice a year or so ago about your HRT regime. I'm out the other side of meno. I have not had a bleed for about two years. I was on Premarin but was getting visual migraines and stopped. I asked about Uterogestan and Estriadol patches but my GP hadn't heard of uterogestan. I've not revisited HRT because I'm genuinely terrified to put something else in the mix now. My sister had a lot of problems..she was bi polar2, really did have a hard time of it with a husband with secondary progressive MS for a long time, no help, full time job etc. and a very sad life.She coped for years but menopause seemed to be the time that pushed her over the edge. She had tried everything, lithium, even ECT. She took her life in 2014 - she was missing for three months before we found her - some poor soul walking his dog in a local forest - and I had to move down to help her husband and son, while also trying to care for ageing parents, one with dementia...then my son got into trouble and ended up in prison. You couldn't make it up lol....I think I've had a couple of years of severe stress and perhaps it takes its toll. I remember when my sister tried to explain how wretched she felt, even a couple of years ago I didn't really get it. When she took her own life I still couldn't believe it and didn't get it. Now I do, and it seem like some awful warped Groundhog Day feeling....it's happening to me too.
I am worried there is a familial mental health thing and meno has just brought it all to a head.
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Lesley998- you are definitely not alone. As Hurdity mentioned, GypsyRoseLee has similar issues, and there are/have been others on the forum as well. One other thing to ask, have your thyroid levels been checked? The thyroid hormones and reproductive hormones "play" together and changes in one can affect the others. Out of balance thyroid can have mental effects too.
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Thanks Lizab.
I had a lot of blood work done a few years ago when I started peri...I had sudden crippling joint pain (turned out to be a frozen shoulder, common when oestrogen levels drop) and GP tested ESR levels, FSH and did some thyroid checks too. I'm supposing all well as the only result was FSH and she started me on HRT which I've since stopped due to side effects.
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Well, you and I seem to be on the same path! I started with frozen shoulder too. I never went to the doctor for it, used Dr. Google. At the time I had recently weaned my, then, one year old, so I chalked it to hormonal changes from weaning. Most of my earlier peri issues were blamed on the baby. She's five now and there's no denying it's menopause ;D
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Aw bless your heart :-(
I don't know much at all about all this but the cycles of the madness you describe do sound hormonal but with probably ptsd thrown in as you've really been through the mill emotionally
I would think even being post meno there could still be surges, I know I don't feel the same day in/day out and I'm 2 to 3 years post meno myself
You need to find a kind understanding gp at your practise, one that even if they don't have the answers, cares enough to get the answers or to refer you speedily to whoever
Big hugs xxxx
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Lizab....I remember when the frozen shoulder started thinking I had some awful bone disease...it was so flippin painful. Didn't link it to peri. My ESR levels were not raised, no inflammation and I went to doc before it was in frozen stage so he didn't work it out either. I also remember trying to get up onto the couch for my smear with the nurse practitioner, and wincing a lot, and telling her all about it...she said 'you've got menopausal tendonitis..or frozen shoulder' turned out she was doing some sort of research and knew more about it than most. It's when the lack of estrogen cause the tendons to get dry and brittle...very common first symptom of meno, it's like the tin man seizing up. Apparently its unheard of in Japanese women! Soy perhaps. Anyway...it ran its course, and the physical issues all cleared up too eventually...I've just been left with the head stuff. Deep joy.
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Annie0710.... thank you x
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Mental Health can certainly 'run' in families. Which is why I am aware of mine and can see traits in my sister. That's on the paternal side. My Maternal health history is also a worry, really I don't have any genealogy that means I should survive but I do. Because I know it can be better.
Sadly there aren't any blood tests to find out how our mental health is and how we are likely to react to the various medications, certainly some can do exactly the opposite of what they are designed for :-\ :sigh: So having somewhere to 'run' to is important when these feelings threaten to take over. I used to sit in my Surgery Waiting Room when I felt a danger to myself, they would make me a cuppa and allow me 'time'. That's where MIND walk-in centres may be useful.
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Initially I thought I was sleeping wrong, but no matter what I did it didn't improve. Some overly-concerned girls in my mommy group gave me grief over turning my daughter forward facing in the carseat at 18 months instead of after two years. The law was for 1 year, and I did plan on longer, but I couldn't get her in and out of the rear facing seat because I couldn't extend my arm! Research told me it was frozen shoulder, and the first lasted about 6 weeks if I remember. A few months later the other shoulder did it, and didn't go quite as long but roughly the same.
The things we have to deal with ::)
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Thanks all for the link to Prof.Studd. I can't believe what I'm reading, it's just ME. Reproductive hormonal history....blissfully happy in pregnancy then dreadful PND kicked in a few months after birth, and my subsequent menopausal anxiety/ depression described to a T. It's definitely hormonal. I don't think it is logistically possible to see Prof Studd on a regular basis (I'm as far north as it gets without icebergs) but I will call his office and see if I can have a phone consultation or if they can recommend a consultant a bit closer to home. Feeling cautiously optimistic that I might be able to do something about this living nightmare.
Thanks for all the comments and help.
You're such a lovely bunch x
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...coincidentally, had an appointment early this morning with young male GP to discuss meds and repeat prescription of fluoxetine. I mooted the idea of my chronic and severe cyclical anxiety being hormonal and should I be rethinking medication, including HRT. I was quickly told that I have a generalised anxiety disorder which responds well to the current medication and if it aint broke why fix it. I said, but I am broke, there are three weeks of my life that come on repeat where I genuinely fear I might take my own life. I didn't feel like this before menopause, and there could be a genetic predisposition. Can't remember the exact words but basically was told I was focussing too much on what my sister did and I'm a different person etc...keep taking the tablets dear.
I've tried the female GP but she just pushes Premarin which made me feel even worse and gave me visual migraines. I've come to terms with the fact I'm never going to get any help from the NHS. I'm on my own with this (apart from you girls) and that's the most frightening thing of all.
Does anyone know how you actually find someone to listen to you? It's as simple as that. Apart from the Prof in London, and logistically seeing him, even thinking about arranging to see him will just be a nightmare which as anyone with this hellish condition knows is just another mountain in front of me. Flights I can't afford etc. I wonder if I can consult him from a distance. Repeating last nights rather more optimistic post...sorry.
Thank god I'm out of my dip at the moment or I would be under the covers self medicating with a bottle of wine. I just feel so lost, frustrated and can feel the panic rising that I'm in a bubble and no one can hear me.
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Your GP needs a :kick: .......... I ring the Practice Manager to state that the Staff simply aren't listening and follow it up with a letter stating the same. Then I would also ring Prof Studd's Office and see what is available and you can send an e-mail to Dr Currie on here, details available somewhere on the Forum. Of course GPs don't have to listen >:(.
You could visit a local Pharmacist too. Most have private rooms. Ask the questions!?!
With regard to the GP's off-hand comment that you aren't your sister, he clearly hasn't read the risks of sibling death following a suicide in the family. :'(. You are at risk .......... unless a sibling doesn't show any signs of depression or anxiety. Maybe press for a referral to a Psychiatrist, ring the Surgery and Speak to the PM and tell her that you really do need support right now.
I don't know if there are any on-line references to Dr Kathleen Dalton's work in the 1980s ....... she did lots of research etc. regarding PMS!!
You know that this is cyclic. You also know that your Practice members aren't listening. Do you have other Surgeries within travelling distance?
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Im a bit of a woos CLKD. :o I could no more complain to the Practice Manager than fly in the air. It would just cause me more grief and I just don't want to go there. :bang: So I'll just move on. I'm aware that this cowardly attitude doesn't help others in a similar situation - we need to bring this to the fore and highlight the failings...but right now, it can't be my crusade. I just crumple at the thought of any extra stress. Maybe when I'm well.
I will however call Prof. Studd's office for advice.
I don't have a hell of a lot of faith in GP's. They only know what they know. Years ago when I was 38 I had an episode of severe palpitations and anxiety and to cut a long story short, at one appointment I asked the doc to listen to my heart. I had a history of anxiety (always have, highly strung) and he point blank refused, lest he reinforce my hypochondria. Told me I was an over stressed single parent. I said I'm stressed because you won't listen to me or my heart, banging around in my chest. (I have had no luck with GPs) I spent about three weeks feeling like I had a small animal running around in my chest, and felt absolutely dreadful....firing on one cylinder. Long story short, collapsed, and turned out I had a faulty heart valve coupled with having had an infected tooth out ....caused my heart to go a bit haywire. Now I have been left with a LBBB (bundle block, doesn't cause any problems) but I DID complain to the NHS about this man, I always remember his sitting on the edge of my bed in the hospital (I was in coronary care for three weeks) pulling at his collar and saying he was sorry and was there anything he could do. I just said yes, listen to a 38 year old woman complaining of heart symptoms. Thats why I feel in a bubble. They are just people like us, not magicians and Im on my own with this. Again. its like flipping groundhog day.
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Lesley I think (well almost guarantee) that the dr you mean in London will do a phone consult with you especially as you live so far away. Give the clinic a call and see what they say, so sad your Drs are naff
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No answers Lesley998, just someone who can totally empathise. :hug:
S x
Thanks Sparkle. You know how much it means x
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Lesley I think (well almost guarantee) that the dr you mean in London will do a phone consult with you especially as you live so far away. Give the clinic a call and see what they say, so sad your Drs are naff
Thank you xx
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You are certainly not a whooossss ....... when I was deeply depressed I couldn't vocalise my needs, also I feared that the GP would tell me that there was nothing more he could offer or that he would stop my emergency medication, without which ........ :'( -
GPs are that - they either didn't want to be or weren't clever enough (ducks) to be Consultants. I worked with many who choose front-line GP work because they liked a challenge ::). I worked with Consultants who didn't listen and for a few who were lovely. That gave me ammunition to go in with all guns blazing if I didn't get what I required (once the depression was sorted). Realising that they sit on the loo exactly as I need to do .........
If my GP doesn't appear to be listening - remembering that he has 100s of issues to deal with and then there is the paper work for the Government of the day; I make another appt. a couple of weeks later and go in "I don't think I was listening last time, can you remind me ....... " - it usually works ;-).
What was the question again ....... ::) ..........
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You are certainly not a whooossss ....... when I was deeply depressed I couldn't vocalise my needs, also I feared that the GP would tell me that there was nothing more he could offer or that he would stop my emergency medication, without which ........ :'( -
GPs are that - they either didn't want to be or weren't clever enough (ducks) to be Consultants. I worked with many who choose front-line GP work because they liked a challenge ::). I worked with Consultants who didn't listen and for a few who were lovely. That gave me ammunition to go in with all guns blazing if I didn't get what I required (once the depression was sorted). Realising that they sit on the loo exactly as I need to do .........
If my GP doesn't appear to be listening - remembering that he has 100s of issues to deal with and then there is the paper work for the Government of the day; I make another appt. a couple of weeks later and go in "I don't think I was listening last time, can you remind me ....... " - it usually works ;-).
What was the question again ....... ::) ..........
Lol!
Yes. We are quite a small community (genuinely, my current young GP went to school with my wayward son, although they didn't socialise and we didn't know each other. Just makes me all the more aware of my failings as a parent though...my son was in prison, someone else's lad up the road is now my GP...yay) and I totally agree with the not listening bit. He seems to glaze over wen I'm in front of him, perhaps he genuinely doesn't know what to do with me. I've an awful feeling that I am actually waffling on and to anyone else I sound a bit nuts, but on here I can say it all and you get it.
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Oh don't get me started on the 'glazing over' >:(. Some really have no idea! and I do wonder why they went into medicine at all. Maybe it over-whelms them and they don't like to ask for advice?!? Perhaps go in and say "Could you ask amongst your colleagues and the drug companies how others deal with apparently neurotic women when they present at menopause so that we can work together for a good result?" ::)
Your son on the 'right' road now? :bighug: .......... I've never met anyone with a connection to a person who has been behind bars - does that make me odd, new topic perhaps ........ and I've met 1 child who was adopted ........ maybe I've led a sheltered existence :-\
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I've started a thread on Dr Dalton too ......... crikey, look at the time, not a child in the house washed ;D
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Thanks CLKD. I hope he's on the right road now. He was imprisoned for beating someone up. More than once. It was pretty bad and has caused me a LOT of grief and stress. He was such a lovely kid...until he reached puberty. Those damned hormones again. His biological father was a bit of a weirdo (we split when he was one, I remarried when he was 9) I think ex had BPD. So coupled with my whacky genes, my son has not calmly come out of the gene pool. Sadly he has some mental health issues of his own. He is very aggressive and angry and flips at the slightest thing. He was unlucky to get prison, but I think they wanted to make an example of him. Quite rightly, theres no excuse. To be honest, Iv'e had to distance myself from him a little as I just couldn't cope with it all. We come from a lovely family (of course we ALL do) my caring elderly parents were horrified, my father had dementia and my sister was missing dead in a forest...and my son chose to batter hell out of someone? Twice? I'm usually there for people through thick and thin but this really affected me.
Anyway. Another story.
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People are often angry because they are frightened or feel that their needs aren't being met. From what I understand there is little on-going support for those once their time is served? .........
Sometimes the distance is necessary :bighug:
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So sorry to hear about all your other issues lesley998 - with your own health and the problems with your son - no wonder you are finding things hard.
As already suggested you might be able to e-mail Dr Currie for £25 but I feel you do need to see someone - and especially if you decide on hormonal treatment for reproductive depression, if that's what it turns out to be. I am puzzled by the cyclic nature though - because after menopause although there is some cycling still (which I gather can continue for some years) - it is not the same as when peri-menopausal and hormones fluctuate extremely - however I am sure there is much individual variation and maybe you are one for whom this does happen and you are particularly sensitive to the changing levels?
I don't know where in UK you are but I am sure other gynaes also treat reproductive depression in the same way as John Studd - I know the preparations he uses as part of normal HRT are available on NHS throughout UK but it is the personalised treatment re high doses for reproductive depression under medical supervision that you may well benefit from. Perhaps if you phone you can find out who else practises nearer to you? There is information on specialists on the menu up top - but some of the info is out of date.
Hurdity x
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I've been getting these cycles too it's horrible, meno started at 50 I'm now 55 and last December had the 'madness' for 3 weeks then in March same thing happened anxiety and depression through the roof and yet again in June.
I've got a bit of the morning dreads just now so thinking I'm going to be in for another 3 weeks of misery.
I also find before I't starts my brain goes into overdrive and have loads of thoughts buzzing around. I've been on 3 types of HRT to see if it makes a difference but I still get these cycles.
Wish I could figure out what causes it pretty sure it's hormones as I've never had anything like it before and have no great stress in my life.
Doc just suggests mindfulness or relaxation exercises which I don't think will help because I can't concentrate with the buzzing in my brain!
Might try an anti D although I don't see how it can help if it's hormonal.
Thought I was the only one that suffered from this :(
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Marie62....thank you so much for your comment. It really does help to know other girls have experienced this and understand just how awful it is. It's so hard to describe, and I know exactly what you mean about the jumble of thoughts in your head. When I get it, it's like I just can't stand that my brain won't shut off for a while and give me some respite. It's like being trapped in your own head...old black and white pictures of thirties 'madwoman' clutching their heads springs to mind. I guess it is a mix of hormones and brain chemicals causing this. Prof Studd's webpage explains about reproductive depression but doesn't really go into detail apart from stating that it is probably due to lack of oestrogen, hence his method of using high doses of oestrogel and uterogestan progesterone to oppose it. The weird thing is that my Madness started when I was ON Premarin...I was on the high dose which is why they think I had visual migraines. So maybe too much oestrogen can cause it too? Or maybe it's because Premarin is synthetic and not bio identical. I had a couple of severe anxiety episodes - utterly doom laden, terrified, couldn't go out of the house. When I stopped Premarin it receded, but has come back in cycles ever since. And it's not monthly cycles like periods. Like you, I also seem to get three weeks of utter hell every three months although it does vary. I know when it starts, and I know when I'm coming out of it, it's like a light going back on and you just think oh thank god. It's interesting that Prof Studd mentions a lot of women with it have been misdiagnosed as being bi-polar, which is also cyclic. I've been keeping a diary - well, just a few lines a day- of how I'm feeling, I've done it since 2011 and my first peri symptoms but only recently started scoring myself every day marks out of ten on the Madness (what does that sound like!) so I can try to keep a more rigorous track of it.
Please keep in touch...maybe we can help each other through this hell x
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Lesley998
Hope we can find an answer to this Madness.
I was on Elleste Duo Conti for about 4 months when it started, thinking that could be the cause I asked the Doc if I could try a lower dose HRT so was put on Kliovance but 3 months later it started again, ended up taking half a tablet and weaned myself off it only for the flushes and anxiety to start again, I'm now been on Angeliq for two weeks but still feeling anxious in the mornings.
It did cross my mind I could be bi polar but doing some research ruled it out because I don't get any manic episodes.
I've got some Valium to take when the anxiety gets really bad. I also get irritated so easily now, crowds and noise drive me mad!! Thanks to this site I don't feel so alone, friends my age have sailed through menopause or have had mild flushes, I'd love to know thier secret!
I'm trying to stay away from the Docs as during the 3 weeks of madness I was there once a week desperate for help but felt they couldn't offer me anything except anti D's and I'm very reluctant to take them,the side effects scare me too much. I'm due to go back in 6 weeks to renew my prescription of Angeliq so shall mention about the 3 month cycles and see what they say,not expecting much though.
If I didn't have to go to work I think I'd come off HRT altogether to see if it helped but the flushes and insomnia without it would really affect my ability to do my job.
I will keep you updated and hopefully someone can offer some answers to this madness :)
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I don't get mania either. And I know mania/bi polar from my poor sister, who used to call me at 4am ranting on about some holiday she wanted to book, or just screeching with laughter and wanting to chat at a totally inappropriate time. Then she would go quiet for months and not answer the phone, or the door to anyone. Because of the fact there is no mania, part of me is relieved my issues are probably hormone related and not psychiatric, but I can't help but worry that there is some genetic mental health issue which ties it all together...my sister actually did kill herself eventually, and that terrifies me. I just don't know what's ahead of me, or how many more of these episodes I can take without acting on things when I am at my lowest. Like I said earlier, I didn't get it before, but now I understand the hell she was in. How I wish she was here now so I could get her to Prof Studd. Anyway. I'm waffling. Thanks for listening 😜
Oh...found this link on my many trawls through the internet. But as hurdity said above, this woman is in peri, and I haven't had a bleed for years, which makes the cyclic thing puzzling. But, it's happening to us too, through meno or not and there's the thing...maybe just having ovaries is the problem!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/11698416/HRT-instead-of-anti-depressants.html
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Lesley 998
So sorry to hear about your sister and it must prey on your mind about mental illness being hereditary but I'm 99% sure it's all to do with hormones, it's just like a switch goes on in the brain and I can feel it happening then 3 weeks go by and I feel normal again.
The first episode last December was by far the worst, the last two have been bad but maybe because I've been through it before I've managed to somehow push through those 3 weeks knowing that's how long it will last.
I've not felt suicidal just a horrible feeling of doom and wanting to cry all the time,don't want to see or talk to anyone and anxiety on top makes it horrendous. Christmas Day was awful I sat all day staring at the tv not taking any of it in, couldn't even make a dinner so had a sandwich ::)
Thanks for the link.. interesting reading. I've not had a bleed for 5 years in fact don't even think I got the peri stage, periods stopped dead when I was 50 and I felt fine beforehand, never suffered from PMT or anything like that.
I can't afford to go private so will carry on taking Angeliq and see how it goes.
Hang in there,I'm sure we'll get through it eventually.
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Where did Lesley go :-\
It doesn't matter *what* causes depression and anxiety - we don't always know what causes the common cold or 'flu but treat the symptoms !!
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I think Lesley magically transformed into SweetPea ;)
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I can't keep up ;D
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Lol!
''Tis me, Sweet Pea. Or 'SWEAT PEE' as I have been called in the past on here, how appropriate in menopause. ;D. I realised my real name is all over t'internet in different forums, I've also been posting on Patient UK and decided to go back to my meno matters moniker. I've a thing about being identified 😂😜🤔
Lesley
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I wished I'd have used a different name
I like Jelly Tot
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Annie...you can change it really easily in your settings.
Just go to your Profile and change it
X
Jelly Tot is fab name!
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It might confuse people but I do fancy changing, thanks
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I am picking sweet peas daily :)
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Hello
Just came on to update in case anyone else has similar feelings to me.
Went to my GP, explained the anxiety and doom, suicidal thoughts and he has increased my SSRI dose. Been on 20mg three times a day for three weeks and it has made a huge difference. I just know whatever is happening to me is physiological and has a cause... missing hormones, too much hormones, too little brain chemicals....who knows. But it's nothing I can control or snap out of. I didn't call Prof Studds office and his HRT treatment in the end, as I have a gut feeling that too MUCH oestrogen or an imbalance is my particular problem and I'm scared to revisit HRT unless I absolutely need to. For the moment, I feel fine and I'm concentrating on that, day by day. However, I do know in my case it is cyclical. If the Madness comes back, even with the new SSRI I will have to have another think. Right now, I'm in a better place than I have been for ages. I know that sounds daft, a pill in such a short time can change you so much, but it really does seem to work like that for me. Like my brain was parched of what it needed and filling it up again I feel fine.
Thanks for the comments and support.
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Because we're all different obviously we're going to need different regimes/forms of treatment to get us through the worst
I've been put on 10mg amitriptyline for my nerve pain in my lower back and dr said it can take 6 weeks to kick in, my relief came by the end of the first week
I hope you continue to feel better x
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Good morning Sweetpea. Gosh i now know for sure i am not alone. I am still in my bed contemplating getting up with a lot of the same things going on that you describe. My GP has given me Fluoxetine which has calmed the panicky feelings but they have not gone all together sadly although it is better. But like you, i really did / do think sometimes im going to die and at times wish, when i wake up i could just go back to sleep and not wake up. Its strange though because its not like a clinical depression or a panick attack about 'something' its just there all the time without reason but then when i start to worry about, for example for daughter moving into her new house today in London at vast expense, the panick in me is massive and it shouldn't be. Its ridiculous and i hate it. So big hugs from me and here's hoping you get help. X
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Cortisol - the hormone that wakes us - can rush and make us anxious. Bugga .......... once I'm out of bed that anxiety dissipates a bit, I get on with chores on auto-pilot until breakfast kicks in and eases the anxiety. Then I can plan the morning.
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marie 62 / sweet pea...just read this thread with interest...totally mirrors my experience in the last 6 months. I have this terrible 7-10 days post my period when I am convinved I can't cope and are going crazy; can't concentrate, get my words out, hugely anxious, brain racing, weird dreams, bad gas. Then around Day 20 it just disappears...feel great, loads of energy, relaxed. Can I ask what medication you are on AD wise and do you take it all the time or just when the ' Madness' comes. It is such a good way of describing it. For me it is a switch that is either 'on' or 'off'.
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I'm so fed up with this menopause >:(
After trying elleste duet Conti and Kliovance and suffering from the “madness†I switched to Angeliq about 10 weeks ago.
First few weeks were rough on my stomach but that settled and I began to feel really good but since yesterday I've felt really low and anxious again, knew it was too good to be true!!
I'm probably in for about 2 or 3 weeks of feeling awful and then I should be fine again hopefully.
Don't think there's much point in going to the Doctor as there's nothing they can do as I'm reluctant to take an AD due to the side effects. It would be great if there was some medication that would help me through those 2-3 weeks but I'm pretty sure all AD's take a few weeks to work and by that time I'd probably be back to feeling ok again. I've got an appointment at a menopause clinic in November so hopefully they can help. I want to stay on Angeliq as it's been great for my skin,it feels so soft, but unfortunately doesn't seem to be any good for mood, really don't think hrt can help with mood for me so I'll have to soldier on and hope it calms down over time.
Last episode was at the end of May it was bad but not as bad as the first one in December which pretty much floored me. I know what to expect now and that it will lift and I'll feel fine again but it's so hard to get through those tough few weeks especially as I have to go to work and paint on a happy face when all I want to do is hide away until it lifts. :'(
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Hi,
I have felt crushing depression and anxiety for the past few weeks that has completely floored me. I have honestly felt like chucking myself under a train. No joy in life, hungry all the time, no energy, depressed, teary, unable to cope, want to be on my own but also that means that I end up feeling worse, irritable, fat, frumpy, no good to anyone or for anything. Zero confidence.
Seeing g.p again next week. Resigned from work. What a mess.
So Sweetpea you are definitely not alone and I really feel for you as unless you are going through it, it is very hard for people to understand.
Sending you a bug hug x
Wendy
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Wendy
I really feel for you and you're right nobody understands unless they've been through it, how you're feeling just now was exactly how I felt in December last year, never thought I'd feel better again but after about 3 weeks of hell it lifted and I felt fine again but it seems to rear it's ugly head every 3 or 4 months, as I've said the last few episodes haven't been as bad as that first one so maybe it will diminish in time, I really hope so as it totally destroys your quality of life.
When I'm through the episode and feeling fine it's like I can't relax and enjoy feeling good because I'm always worrying about the next episode ::)
Doctor either wants to prescribe AD's or to try mindfulness or CBT but when your minds racing that's practically impossible.
I'm sure you'll be fine in a few weeks which I know is no consolation just now but it's what happens with me.
Maybe an AD is the way to go for you as any hrt I've tried hasn't helped with mood.
Good luck at the doctors and keep us updated.
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That's awful, you shouldn't be feeling like this then worrying when it will hit again.
I've not read the whole thread, are you wanting to get the hrt right until you think about ADs? Xxx
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Hi Butterfly
Yes im trying to get the hrt right. I'm currently on Angeliq and apart from the mood problems think it's suiting me,my skins really good and have felt fine apart from today and yesterday, I may not lapse into the depression,I'm hoping not but not feeling great at the moment.
I've tried citalopram before but the side effects were awful hence my reluctance to try another AD. I will see what happens when I go to the menopause clinic next month and if they advise an AD I will give it some thought.
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Ah well that's understandable as you need to sort one thing out at a time, sorry your feeling so low.
I've been like a hamster on a wheel try hrt and ad's so no how you feel.
Angeliq was next on my list so good to hear it's helping other things.
Good you can get to a menopause clinic to, get as much info as you can, write notes, have what you tried written down just incase you are like me and forget once there.
I no it seems like hell and is there an end but we ha e to just keep going and trying things but all here to help. Sending hugs xx
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Are any of you able to explain the anxiety and depressive feelings?
Crushing pretty much describes my anxiety, it floors me to the point of suicide and without the emergency med. I wouldn't be here. It starts in my gut, my thighs go weak, followed by my calves; adrenaline surges hot through my veins followed by despair. Within the space of 2-3 mins.. :-\
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Me too CKLD...
I'm 10 days into Tibolone, and the anxiety / depression has floored me :'( That and bursting into tears often during the day :'(
I'm off to the doc for blood test results tomorrow, I've had full thyroid, iron, vit B12 and hormone (all 5 this time, not just oestrogen and FSH - this is all doc checked last time >:()
All this, and weaning off 1mg lorazepam (was taking for about 6 - 8 weeks at night to sleep, now only lasting about 4 hours instead of 6) and wondering if symptoms are due to interdose tolerance, etc, etc :'(
Just so hard to know...I'm taking melatonin 2mg (prescribed), .75mg lorazepam and I'm trialling a herbal sleep aid I found in the chemist today....
This is truly such an awful time, I feel like I'm in the midst of a great grief :'( :'( :'(
If bloods are inconclusive, I'm going to ask for Mirtazapine as it's meant to be quite good for insomnia, anxiety and depression.
And sweetpea.... I'm hearing and feeling your pain, it's exactly how I've been feeling since about mid - June
Love and best wishes to all of us brave women xx ❤️
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I have not had the Madness now since I first posted and started regularly taking fluoxetine. It's a life saver for me. However, I am waking with stirrings of those familiar dread feelings, and am praying it is not a sign of the return. I dont think I can do it again.
CLKD, although I am well ATM, it's hard to explain the anxiety and depressive feelings. For me, it is more mental than physical. A continual feeling of sadness. Constantly aware that I feel sad and unhappy (nowhere near the best descriptive words but can't think of any others) as opposed to just going through the day in a 'normal' mood. Waking up with a groan - not a 'oh Im tired, wish I could stay in bed' groan, more an 'I've woken up again and I wish I was still asleep/unconscious/dead' groan. Then the fear hits, churning stomach and whirling thoughts, curled up on my side staring at the wall and almost biting the duvet to stop from screaming out. Trying to pretend I'm fine when all I want to do is cover my eyes and ears and curl into a ball. The thought of showering and deciding what to wear is like the thought of climbing Everest. Fear of the fear, why am I feeling this way. Genuinely thinking suicide would be an answer as I can't get to 10am let alone the rest of my life. Hammering heart, churning stomach, dry mouth, dizzy. Somehow getting though the day and by 5pm I'm fine. It's cortisol!! Brain chemicals. Some celebrity on one of the programmes this week described iit a bit...wish I could remember who. I've said this so many times, but really - why has it taken this long for the world to realise that women go through sheer hell in meno. All the old jokes about the mad wife in the attic....Jane Austen knew all about it. The burned 'witches' knew all about it. We know all about it.
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Your original post could have been mine - you've nailed exactly how I feel. I have had several really bad bouts over the last three years and this current one has now been with me for nearly three months. I have some kind of funny trapped wind thing on my left side that is almost certainly anxiety related - as it never bothers me or it goes when I am busy or out with others and happily distracted. But I can't seem to lift the negativity long term, or when I'm alone/not distracted. Like the OP I want desperately to get out of my head.
I would actually really like a couple of glasses of wine, but meno has stopped me metabolising it, it makes me wake in the early hours completely paranoid.
I am starting to despair of ever being well. Have prescription for Sertraline but too scared to take it. Take HRT but not convinced it helps the anxiety (my god, if it does, what on earth would I be like without it!).
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I woke this morning in tears of despair! Thinking that my anxiety and depression are back. I truly feel that I've made very little progress over the last 2 years.
But the posters on this thread have made me feel ‘normal' - so thank you!
I too, wish I could get out of my head as it's not the best place to be.
I feel like I'm wishing my life away at the moment.
Good luck to all and let's hope we find some respite soon x
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Sweet Pea - sorry if you've already said but menobrain here can't remember whether you have considered Anti-depressant and Anti-anxiety medications? Without mine I wouldn't be here! I also have an emergency pill to take when anxiety floors me. I am gradually withdrawing the Propranolol due to background headaches which have made my mental health judder, they have served me well since 2002 but I need to adjust what I am swallowing. The GP is keeping a close eye ::). PHEW!
Does the 'fluoxetine' help any, an AD? Don't know why the Companies give these drugs such long names ::). Is it a drug that you could 'up' the dosage of, or even take one dose on one day and up the next to even out how you feel? It will pass. I used to wake in DEEP pre-hensile fear - that I would never feel well again. I never considered that any of my depression was hormone related, it was AWFUL - regardless of the cause :-\
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Hi all
CLKD - fluoxetine is a long name for Prozac. Sorry - I have a nurse background and can't help using big words when a little one will do ;D. Prozac has saved my life I think. I came off it last year as I HATE the notion of having to take the damned thing just to feel normal. I was taking biotin to help hair growth and thought it was also helping my anxiety as I felt great for a while. I soon found myself having suicidal thoughts and feeling as I described in my first post. Within days of re starting Prozac I was coping again. It is an AD but it works for my anxiety. It must counter whatever it is I produce early morning (cortisol? Adrenaline? ) and although I have started with the dreads again it's nothing like as bad as it was. What a rollercoaster this is.
Wendy, Rebel and Mis171mum...I'm sorry you are struggling too. I wish I had some words of reassurance...perhaps just we are NOT alone in this and hundreds and of other women suffer with the Madness. I'm sort of proof it can be controlled a little with drugs...but I never know if I'm cured, if it will come back.
Rebel: I think if I were you I would try the sertraline. It can't do any harm and might just even up your brain chemicals as the Prozac has done for me.
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I have just been give elleste duet my doctor says it was one of the common ones that is used by a lot of women , I was using the sequi patch a that worked at first then ‘bang ‘all my sweats moods etc came back , feeling so low and worthless have a funeral tomorrow my uncle and I am dreading it , can't start the elleste duet until I start a period whenever that will be ! Now reading your post I don't feel so keen I know different ones work for some people but knowing my luck they won't work, has anyone been on them and they have worked well ?
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Dear Sweet Pea
Thanks for your account of how you are feeling with menopause. I am sure that many of us can identify with the awful feelings of fear and anxiety that cause so much distress particularly on waking. So glad that the Prozac is having a beneficial effect and hope that you continue to feel better as meno can be so disturbing. Would you mind sharing the dose of the ad with us. Did you encounter any difficulties when first going on it. Many thanks for sharing on the forum.
Meg
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Hi Meg
I'm currently taking 20 mg twice daily and I think it's a regime that works for me. It works quickly to elevate my dreadful “I can't do this wish I was dead†mood. According to my GP this shouldn't happen as it's not the way the drug metabolises......but I can really feel it kick me into gear about ten mins after taking it. I have had no problems with it although my sister said she felt drugged and woozy like a zombie when she was on it. I find it makes me more motivated and productive. Just lifts that dark cloud. There are lots of newer SSRIs that perhaps are better... but this works for me. I've had a problem with it for years, viewing it as the enemy...why should I have to take a drug to make me feel happy. But now I've come to terms, especially in meno, that it is a life saver for me.
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Why not take medication? When you are hungry, do you not eat? The brain needs support too. I wanted to know what was causing my depression B4 agreeing to long-term ADs, but no one was interested. 'genetic pre-disposition' has never been enough explanation!!
I have to take ADs for ever. I sometimes need to alter the dose in order to feel well. It's taken years to get so that I'm not worrying all the while.
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Thanks Sweet Pea for your response. I appreciate your candour in describing your horrendous symptoms. My heart goes out to all of you lovely ladies who are going through so much suffering through menopause. It is hard to know why some women are hit so much harder than others and we are in the 21st century. Thanks CLKD for your wisdom.
Meg
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So this is how random and weird it is. I SO wanted to be well. But, today I feel the shitty (sorry) demon return. I can just be sitting thinking about what to make for lunch one minute, and , ‘oooh, I would be better off dead' next minute. Here we go again.