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Author Topic: We are not crazy!!! Oestrodose and Oestrogel differences confirmed!!!  (Read 553 times)

Bobidy

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Hi all

This is a long standing issue many of us have had with Ostrodose, old Estrogel design and new Estrogel.

I've just been catching up on Liz Earle's You Tube https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rzJ9gHUqXN8
and she talks about this issue being rumbled by Dr Zoe at Manchester Menopause Hive instagram, with advice on how to get what you want.

I thought this may help some of you. I've swapped to patches now so it's no longer an issue for me thank god, but earlier this year I'd had to double my dose of gel to 6-8 pumps overnight.

We shall overcome!!!! xx
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Salad

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Thanks Bobidy- there was definitely a difference between them for me when I used them.  :)
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lillith112

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Hmmm, I had to switch from patches to gel, Oestradose, been on it for a month now and my bladder symptoms have returned, been fine on patches, now keep feeling like I have a bladder infection, urgency and started leaking, was fine before now. Coincidence or maybe not  :-\

Lillith.
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Katymac

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Oh my goodness, that oestrodose was what they gave me when I ran out of patches

I have been so poorly on it

I thought it was the tablet!
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Tinkerbell

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My meno symptoms come back when i have ended up with Oestrodose and i get skin irritation with it too. I have been told on several occasions that there was no difference between them on this forum and by pharmacists.  I now go to an independant chemist and they always order Oestrogel in for me.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 10:41:57 PM by Tinkerbell »
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lillith112

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Well last night just validates it for me, hot flushes back, irritable, cant sleep, both hands numb and peeing all night  :'(. Didn't have any of this on patches and even started to get my libido back. I best ring my GP on Monday.

My bottle had a sticker on saying Oestrogel which covered up the original Oestradose label, am fuming as it took months to build up my estrogen levels and just started feeling good on the patches  :'(.  I was going to attached a pic of my bottle but I don't know how. 

Just a thought as gel is unstable,  I wonder if it's lost it's potency due to storing it in too high a temperature when they collect it from the EU ?.

Lillith.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 07:19:23 AM by lillith112 »
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Hurdity

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Thanks for posting this, but sorry to burst your bubble Bobidy as she really doesn?t know what she?s talking about!

I listened to the relevant section with interest as  a couple of years ago I spent a lot of time and energy on this trying to get to the bottom of it to help other members and there is a very long thread on it (which goes off on fanciful tangents now and again!).

The upshot was as far as we know there is no difference in manufacture between the two but they are labelled for different countries, sometimes packaged differently ( the outer carton and pump mechanism) for parallel importers, of which there are several (good luck with trying to contact any of these!).

She has not said anything that we don?t already know as far as I can make out. I?m not sure whether we knew that it was manufactured at different plants in France (Belgium?) but all the other information does not change anything nor confirm that there are differences.

She glossed over what she suggested might be differences in manufacture and then talked about possible differences in storage conditions and then later in her rant said ? something along the lines that how dreadful it was that women find something that works for them and then they ?mess around with the manufacture or storage or whatever? or words to that effect!  Previously she talked about evidence based information. Nothing about what she said was evidence based and the same answers probably that I got when I wrote to Besins. She didn?t even properly know what parallel imports were.

She said she knew about gels having worked in skin care, but why on earth would a company market a pharmacuetical product that was that unstable and clearly this would be tested? I mean she really should stick to skin care in my view!

All the details about what they said can be found on the other thread which I will find and bump but here are the main points:

?Oestrodose is the same as Oestrogel. In the UK the product is branded Oestrogel, some other
countries such as France call the product Oestrodose. In the UK the parallel imports of Oestrogel are all sourced from France and are labelled Oestrodose.

All of the Besins Oestrogen Gels have exactly the same qualititative and quantitative compositions and are all manufactured at Besins Healthcare, Belgium.
... all of the products are identical in terms of the composition, packaging supplied and manufacturer and so there is no difference in hot/cold countries
.?

?There is only one formulation for manufacturing this product and the stabilities on the product, whether Oestrodose or Oestrogel, are all compliant. There was no significant difference in the past 20 years in stability studies for this product. However, the stability studies are made on products not leaving the factory and stored in the optimum conditions for the complete shelf-life period, although we have stability studies for the following conditions: 25℃ & 30℃ for 36 months and 40℃ for 6 months.
?

Here is the bit about stability:

?However, the product Oestrodose distributed in the UK is not monitored by Besins. Once the product leaves the distribution warehouse in France, we do not know what happens to the product when it is with the wholesaler in France and when it is shipped to the importer in the UK. Therefore, it is not possible for us to confirm that this is just a perception as there is a part of the time where the product has been out of our control and we do not know what conditions the product has been exposed to?

There has always remained the possibility that storage conditions from some parallel importers might affect the gel if it was far outside the optimal parameter, but this is a totally different issue from manufacture.

The issue of the yellow card was also covered in the thread and has been repeatedly stressed whenever this topic comes up, so if anyone had an allergic reaction specifically to eg Oestrodose and not Oestrogel this needs reporting under this scheme and ideally also to Besins  as this could indicate a fraudulent product maybe?

Changing from patches to gel and how your respond is a completely different issue to the one raised here. Changing delivery method will always involve some tweaking and some women absorb better through patches, others through gel. Other individual factors also affect gel absorption ? again covered in that thread I think. Different temepratures on your skin will affect absorption and also if you are perimenopausal then your own levels will vary.

Lilith. Sorry to hear about your return of sympoms but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with oestrodose. This woman on Youtube is doing other women a disservice by suggesting the product does not work or implying this.  Your return of symptoms are because you have changed from patches to gel and what you are feeling would be the same if you were using the UK packaged Oestrogel. but if it's not suiting you then you either need to increase the dose or go back to patches if your levels are stable using these? Good luck!

Have a good weekend everyone :)

Hurdity x
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Bobidy

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Hi, yes by the sounds of it, it's the storage or carrier gel stability.

I didn't write down the details Liz gave at the end of her chat, but I think if you gave your doctor all of the specifics this should be very clear for the pharmacist.

The more I know about hrt and the menopause the more outraged I become x
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Dotty

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I agree with what Hurdity has said. I am a member of Menopause Support Group on Facebook and Diane Danzebrink has been doing a lot of research into the Oestradose / Oestrogel saga. She has had a reply from Besins and they state that the two are identical. Dr Zoe Hodson has been looking into how to get prescribed Oestrogel rather than Oestradose, but she hasn?t actually said that they are different.

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lillith112

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Thanks Hurdity, it's an interesting read, I have applied 3 pumps of gel this morning to see if that helps, if not I must not be suited to the gel.

Does anyone know about the availability of patches now ?, are they still hard to get hold of ?.

Lillith.
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Bobidy

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Hi all

For those who are interested Dr Zoe has just posted on her Instagram, Manchester Menopause Hive, about this again. I can't copy and paste it I'm afraid. Basically Besins have confirmed about storage and also Oestrodose turning up instead of Estrogel.
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Hurdity

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In order to demonstrate that adverse storage conditions had affected the quality of the estradiol gel (which started off as identical according to Besins), samples of bottles where women feel there is a difference, need to be sent off for testing to determine the estradiol content as well as some sort of quality control to ensure that it meets the standards of the product packaged and lableed for the UK. if this was done and it didn't then surely the PI licence (parallel import) would be revoked for that particular company. This is an ongoing saga, so if storage is an issue I can't understand why this would not have been investigated before? My correspondence with Besins goes back two years. I had a look at the Instagram post but couldn't see anything to confirm or refute anything really. Maybe I'll contact her!

The issue of Oestrodose as Oestrogel is another matter. Like I have reported before - it is called Oestrogel because that is what it is known as in the UK. There is only one Besins estradiol product on the EMC register. it's like with some patches. During the shortage women have sometimes been getting the EU (not UK) equivalent of a particualr patch with a label put over it because it is known by a different name in different countries. It is the same patch though..... Of course if women want the one labelled Oestrogel but not overlabelled, then they have the information to do so.

I started looking into it originally because it was a long saga with all sorts of speculation and talk about generics so at least I sorted that out! The storage is another matter but also I would have thought easy to determine through the yellow card scheme and/or return of samples to Besins themslelves. Surely their reputation is also at stake here?

Hurdity x
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Bobidy

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Hi all

What Insta is saying is ...

Estrogel and and Oestrodose are both made by Besins in Belgium, Estrogel for U.K. market and Oestrodose for France market. Some parallel import companies e.g. Chemilines, are buying cheaper Oestrodose in France and selling it to the U.K. wholesalers e.g Phoenix, who repackage and relabel it as Estrogel for U.K. pharmacies.

Besins have confirmed that once products leave them they have no control over the storage and it seems to be the storage conditions of Oestrodose which is causing the breakdown of the product?

Meno ladies are being urged to request the English version of Estrogel, PIP code 217-1775 and ask your doctors to specify this on your prescription. Check the prescription before you leave the pharmacy, you can ask them to ensure it isn't Oestrodose. If you don't want it don't take it! Once you leave that pharmacy you can't return it for refund/resale, it will have to be destroyed by them.

If you are fine on Oestrodose then obviously don't take any notice of any of this and carry on.

If you are using Oestrodose and find it less effective then take a minute to complete the yellow card system via gov.U.K.

I'm confident that they'll get to the bottom of it somehow.

If it turns out to be something dodge then hopefully heads will roll!!!!

Thank god patches are back in circulation that's all I can say, if ladies speak with their feet then surely Besins etc will do a proper investigation.

For me personally I don't see how this many women can be affected and it not be a less effective product but Evorel can have my business now for the next 40 years.


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Jeepers

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thanks, I've reported the ineffectiveness (for me) of Oestrodose on the yellow card system.
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Supposing a tree fell down, Pooh, while we were underneath it?

Supposing it didn't, said Pooh.

Bobidy

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That's great Jeepers.

I know this all sounds a bit melodramatic but I appreciate how distressing it is when we've got a routine that works fine for ages and then it gets thrown out and symptoms come back. I know there can be lots of reasons for this but I do think it's worth looking at.

If it does turn out to be the product then I think that's unacceptable and needs investigation and accountability,

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