Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Rivadan on November 01, 2011, 11:18:35 AM
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I thought it might be good to start a new thread for those of us currently trying or about to try Utrogestan to supplement separate oestro due to problems with progesterone.
I know we've had earlier discussions in several threads about how much to take and how often but these can get buried over time.
I'm going to try it in December having had a couple of months blissfully taking 1mg oestrogen only. Would be very interested to find out how others have found it.
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Hi Rivadan
I've used Utro the following ways:
(1) Utro 200mg x 12 per month - oral
(2) Utro 200mg x 10 per month - oral
(3) Utro 200mg x 12 per month - vag
(4) Utro 100mg alternate nights - vag
Will you be using it (1)?
It's supposed to be one of the lesser androgenic progesterones.
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I'll probably start with (1) but would prefer (2) - as little as I can get away with to create a bleed!
Which regime did you prefer?
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I'm starting this on Friday. Evorel 50 plus Utrogestan 200 for 12 days each cycle. I have put it off for a few months but have now run out of my old HRT so I have to take the plunge
Taz x
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You're not tempted to try it as a conti regime to see if you can manage without bleeds now, Taz?
Bette x
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I have been on Evorel Conti and Femseven Conti plus kliovance and all of them gave me constant bleeding. I am being swapped to utrogestan as the meno clinic doc has researched it thoroughly and this is the best progesterone for me to use taking into account my family history of DVT's. I have never had a DVT (touch wood) but my mum and all four of her brothers suffered from them in their fifties.
Taz x
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Hi Rivadan - just a quick reply as I said more on the other thread about prog intolerance and vag Utrogestan.
Just started taking 200 mg Utrogestan vaginally 12 days per 2 months (experimental cycle) and have two more nights to go. So far so good....
I will also update the long cycle thread too when I see what happens after the weekend.
Hurdity x
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Hi - thanks for the info and glad it seems to have been a positive experience so far.
Having been bleed free for over 12 months now, the prospect of having a bleed which could potentially be quite heavy is rather depressing.
I'm now at the stage of thinking I really don't want to go back onto a sequi regime, so I'm hoping the utrogestan may be a possible for using as a conti.
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Hi Rivadan
I presume that you've seen the doseage of Utrogestan which is suggested in the Green Menu for a conti regime?
100mg at bedtime from day 1 to 25 of each 28 day cycle
Bette x
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Yes, for some reason it doesn't seem to be prescribed very often. I didn't have any choice though as they only seem to do that or MPA as separate progs. I went to a largish Boots to get the prescription and they'd never heard of it and had to order it in.
I did see that utro can be used as a conti, but the issue is whether I can tolerate it as that's been the issue with the other types of prog.
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I've just has a look at the product details for Utrogestan - because I was wondering why it is not completely continuous ie 100 mg for 25 days out of 28 days cycle, and this is what it says:
"Alternatively 100 mg can be given at bedtime from day 1 to day 25 of each therapeutic cycle, withdrawal bleeding being less with this treatment schedule."
So it is not quite a conti - in that there might be a small bleed, and presumably also there may be some symptoms on withdrawal - for those who are negatively affected. Maybe as the dose is low this might not be as severe as with 200 mg?
The other interesting point was that studies showed quite large individual variations in plasma progesterone levels after taking it orally - but that the individual responses stayed the same over several months, "indicating predictable responses to the drug". ie if you absorb a lot of it and reach a high concentration then you will most likely continue to do so each month. Presumably that is one of the reasons why some women find it works for them and others have bad side effects - maybe levels are too high. Again a reason for being able to prescribe the right amount for each individual!!
http://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/19895/SPC/Utrogestan%20100mg%20Capsules
It also means that for those who still have heavy bleeds on sequi HRT this might be a good compromise - because the more or less continuous prog prevents the womb lining building up so much - but what does build up is still shed.
Hope that makes sense? I am thinking aloud with all this and still trying to work it out.... and as you say jaycee I wouldn't have even thought about it had it not been for Candy's earlier posts.
Hurdity x :)
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Hi - I've just started the Utrogestan 200 - have taken 2 so far. I must admit I'm feeling pretty spaced out - my head's all over the place and I slept very heavily last night - I don't think I actually moved for 7 hours!
Sitting here thinking about all the things I've got to get done in the next 14 days, I hope this will improve or I'm going to end up with one huge stress headache.
I noticed in another thread that one of our ladies has been prescribed Utro quarterly. That's sounding a lot more attractive already!
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Thanks for posting the link Hurdity. Very informative. It answered all my queries and concerns. :)
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Hi Ladies
Re the utrogestan part of my regime. My doctor prescribed 14 days every three months, and said that quite a few of her meno ladies get on well with this. I did have the same problem with boots not having it in stock, so they have ordered it for me. I am due to start taking these in January and will keep you posted. I was quite suprised when my dr told me that some ladies do not take any progestrone, just estrogen, and then have yearly scans of their wombs.... But she said she would not advise this, I think I would be too scared to try that regime. So am hoping that the utrogestan works.
I am a bit confused re the provera as I had the deprovera injection for many years for contraception and never had any problems, yet now I am going through peri my body can not tolerate it... So weird all this meno journey.................
Cacey x
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Morning Cacey. Thanks for updating us.
How interesting that some women take no progesterone at all, only estrogen - like you I would be too scared to try this, but admire those that do.
I'm all for quality, and not quantity of life, but I'm afraid no progesterone at all would be a step too far for me. :-\
cm xx
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Hi Rivadan
Yes I felt like that when I first started taking the Utrogestan - it really does have the sedative effect that prog is known to have! My head felt just like that and I slept really deeply. I sort of got used to it after a while - and for me that was really the only side effect - a bit foggy headed, but not the migraine type of head - ie not the tension that for me comes with withdrawal of the prog (although not with the Utro - the first time anyway).
Hopefully you will get used to it and still be able to function - yes it's a very busy time on top of everything else!
I am very interested in the quarterly regime which some specialists ( including the Prof I gather) do not find favour with now - and I must see if I can find some recent research on this when I have a mo'...). Cacey interesting that your doc has prescribed this several times and would be interesting to find out where they are in meno and whether they have had any problems - or indeed whether she recommends a regular scan for them?
I would never risk no prog even with an annual scan - if it is deemed safe then quarterly sounds like the way to go for many prog intolerant women
Yes weird how we react to different chemicals and hormones and at different stages - no wonder we are all difficult to treat!
Have a great weekend
Hurdity x :)
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The last week or so I haven't been sleeping as well as usual [well -usual for me anyway] and it does seem to coincide with me stopping the Provera, that I used to take at bedtime.
So for now I am left with two choices - 1, erratic sleep patterns or 2, really bad PMT.
I think I made the right choice for now, as the PMT really does wear me out. I actually feel drained with it.
At least I can cope with less sleep. For now anyway. :)
cm xx
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Not wishing to be scaremongering here, however feel I have to relay this ...
I've had it drummed into me at the meno clinic that low dose prog - ie. 100 mg Utrogestan x 7 or 10 days per month is NOT sufficient protection - also they no longer recommend the quarterly use.
Doc implied prescription of prog at the clinic is v.much experimental, trial and error for the individual - and I guess they are erring on the side of caution.
As others have mentioned on other threads, can only think the low dose would be acceptable along with yearly endo scan.
Night_Owl
x
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Hurdity, think you have posted similar info.
Meno doc explained, from their recent stats, for monthly (sequi) use prog:
(forgot to ask over what period of time though, dang! Sorry - that's such a relevant point!!!!)
Utro 200 mg x 12 per month = 1% chance of hyperplasia
x 10 = 2%
x 7 = 4%
Same for Cyclogest 400 mg
NB: Utro 200 mg NOT 100
Cyclo 400 mg NOT 200
Recommended: back to Cyclo 400 x 10 per month, try rectal use, as though I don't tolerate it all well, it's slightly better than Utro, a bit less sedative.
Night_Owl
x
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Hi Ladies,
I'm on 7 days of utrogestan 100mg oral route starting the 1st of each month. John Studd told me to expect a withdrawal bleed on day 10 but as it is a low dose gestogen it does not always produce a bleed. I just hope I don't end up in bed with a hideous migraine when I finish the 7 days as that's what usually happened on the other regimes I've been on.
My GP thinks I might have to have regular scans with the P being so low but that's fine with me.
I'm on day 3 of the 7 days at the moment and the only thing I've noticed is I'm sleeping really well.
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I'm on oestradiol valerate 1mg tabs with 100 mg Utrogestan x 12-13 days p.m. I haven't had a bleed for months now so may have to up the Utrogestan to 200mgs.
Gynae said at the outset that it could be the low oestrogen level that means I am not bleeding, but I think I am to have a scan in January to check.
I know he does not like the continuous progesterone idea but prefers 10 days - 2 weeks p.m.
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Hi Bombus I see you say "My GP thinks I might have to have regular scans with the P being so low but that's fine with me."
Will these scans be available on the NHS or will you have to pay for them?
Taz x
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Gordon Bennett .... inconsistencies or what??? Wouldn't it be great if all the medics were singing from the same hymn sheet on this.
I'm hoping the foggyheaded feeling will ease off as the days go by. Yesterday was horrible. I felt so lethargic all day long. Also noticed I had a very dry mouth too. Can't see me going through this every month. Was optimistic about the quarterly regime - but then there seems to be a question mark over that too! Grrrrrr...........
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oldsheep - yes that is probably the case ie the oestrogen just isn't enough to build up anything - not sure how far into meno you are? After 4 years of sequi my bleeds stopped. I then stopped HRT and had a scan and the lining was thin. I was on patches but the same dose usual for post meno (50 mcg).
Good that they have suggested a scan though to be on the safe side!
I would hope that if a GP suggests annual scans as a result of their prescribed treatment (eg low dose prog because you are so intolerant) that they would be on the NHS!! It is only a luxury if you decide yourself!
Nightowl yes those stats ring a bell - unless they've been updated Studd refers to them in his 1997 prog inolerance paper that Candy put up ( I can post the link if anyone wants it). He refers to earlier research from 1978 and 1980 - but the figures he quotes are: 0% hyperplasia with 12 days prog per month, 2% with 10 days and 4% with 7 days.
I presume they will have been updated so may be less favourable as you say 1 % chance with 12 per month - surely this mean we are all at risk who are on cyclical? I would imagine the research would have been done over 9 months to a year minimum ( the 1978 work was 9 months).
And I suppose the fact they are inconsistent is that the specialists like Studd, and Panay and his clinic ( the latter which I understand can be available on the NHS), are actually doing and publishing the research, but some of the GPs for example will not have read up on all of this and will only go on the licensed products.
It's great to share all this knowledge and experiences - at least we can see the range of responses we all have which is sometimes so different but can be the same - eg tiredness on Utro.....
Hurdity x :)
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Hi Taz,
The scans will be on the NHS. How did you get on with the Utrogestan?
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I haven't started it yet due to this and that. I have lots of different things coming up that I had to go to and also was on antibiotics when the right day came round to start them. I was already feeling not so great so thought I would put it off for another month. Although I had started the Evorel 50 I also had two progesterone containing patches left of the Femseven so I used those. Naughty I know.
Taz :D
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I've been naughty quite a few times as far as the P part of HRT is concerned. Hope you have a positive experience with the Utrogestan.
Bx
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Considering my GP felt I should be "absolutely fine" taking oestrogen only for 3 months, I think there's a little 'wriggle room' we can take advantage of. I've always missed the P part once a year for my hols.
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Here is some info about Utrogestin that might be of interest.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/73/2/373.abstract
silverlady x
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Thanks for that link silverlady!
I can't pretend that I understand lipoprotein and cholesterol metabolism but the most interesting part was the last sentence "These results suggest that Utrogestan has lower potency of androgenic action and has desirable effects when given in cyclic combination with estrogen. "
I can see also that for those with hysterectomy this would also be interesting, and I believe, also demonstrates one aspect of the metabolic role of natural progesterone, given in prescribed doses.
Hurdity x :)
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My meno clinic told me that utrogestan was the progesterone recommended in those who have a family history of DVT's. They investigated my family history, something that my GP had touched on, and although I am not a carrier of the most common clotting gene I am still supposed to be at less risk on Utrogestan than the other ones. My family link is that my mum and her brothers all developed DVT's in their fifties. Unfortunately they are all dead (not from blood clots though!) so we can't find out whether they were all suffering from the same gene defect.
Utrogestan 100mg Best Price
Taz x
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The only bit I'm really interested in (and can understand!!) is "lower potency of androgenic action" - which might hopefully mean it lessens the amount of hair I was shedding on Norethisterone.
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It explains that taking Utrogestan with estrodiol helps increase the good HDL cholesterol, also taking estrodiol by mouth increases triglycerides but transdermally it is less likely to do so.
The main point is that Utrogestin does not negate HDL like progestin does.
That is good news for those concerned about their cholesterol levels and taking hormones.
silverlady x
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my good cholesterol's gone up on HRT (Utrogestan as the progesterone). So has my bad. But the ratio is apparently acceptable. Don't want to take statins as already have M.E and fibro and they often give muscle problems. The specialist I saw last winter when was v ill is also a cardiologist and he told me that those cholesterol drink things are not total rubbish so I swallow one daily as well.
I really don't find Utrogestan helps me sleep though. Lucky you if it does help with that
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I feel the same Jaycee - I don't have trouble sleeping anyway but this Utro seems to be giving me horrible hung-over feeling. I must admit I've been ready to throw the whole lot in the bin in the last couple of days!
Talking of hangovers, what exactly happens if you take Utro shortly after eating and drinking? (as is likely to be the case over the next few weeks).
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The tiredness is why I wouldn't want to use it conti although 100 mg is less but I think you are on that aren't you jaycee and still feeling tired?
I guess it's a balancing act as always - continous tiredness versus a bleed! There is no magic cure except for those lucky women ( who we probably don't hear much about) who have no side effects and can happily take anything!
If tiredness is the only side effect on Utrogestan and there is no withdrawal migraine then to me that is fantastic - as I just cant cope with the headaches on norethisterone, and Cyclogest withdrawal.
It is probably a similar feeling to pregnancy tiredness when prog levels are high - I remember feeling v tired especially at first. Also during the second half of the menstrual cycle I often felt tired and that will have been due to the prog.
Not sure of the drinking thing Rivadan! Me alcohol and prog just don't mix and I'll get a hangover on a very small amount of aclohol especially wine drunk late at night, when using prog.... Seems to be OK once the prog has gone though ie now ( last took it mid Nov - prog that is not alcohol ;D).
Hurdity x :)
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I will try to last the course and have a bleed, and then review the situation. One thing in its favour (as with norethisterone) is that it hasn't affected my mood which I thought it might.
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Hi Ladies,
Was woken up yesterday morning at 4am with a blistering sick migraine. It's completely gone today- unusual as they last 3 days on average. So, it looks as though 5 days of utrogestan oral route caused a 1 day migraine. Last night I took it by V route, maybe that's why I feel better today. I'm going to use it v route tonight then that's it-7 days done! In January I'm going to do 7 days by V route in the hope that it might be the solution for me. Anyway, I just have to wait now to see if I get a bleed.
Intend to phone consultant and tell him what happened re migraine and what I intend to do next month. Have no idea if it will be approved but will let you know.
B
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Okay - so I'm now on day 10 of the 200mgs oral. As others have said, I do think the lethargy has decreased a little as the days have gone by - however, today I woke feeling exactly as I used to on the day a period started, and lo and behold I have started spotting, so would expect tomorrow to be heavier.
Does this mean 10 days is enough for me? I'm confused! I had hoped the bleed would take place over next weekend but now it looks like its going to be Monday morning - oh joy!
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bombus - sorry to hear about your migraine while taking Utro - that is a blow. You are on 200 mg aren't you for 7 days aren't you? In view of what I found out and said on the other thread, do you think this might be less in terms of side effects if you were on 100 mg for longer by V route? Hope you are OK and didn't get a withdrawal migraine as well...?
Rivadan - glad you managed to tolerate the Utro more or less but weird to get the bleed early. I would still take the whole course especially as you haven't had any prog for 3 months. I can't remember if you are under a meno specialist or GP but I am sure a specialist would be able to give you an explanation. I think some women on sequi get thier bleed before they go onto the oestro only preparation ie while still on the prog so this is probably just normal? It's a pain isn't it trying to time things - doesn't always work out!
jaycee - I've commented on the other thread - sorry to hear about your cramps....
Hurdity x :)
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Hurdity thanks for your help. I will finish the course and then maybe next time it will be more predictable.
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Hi Ladies, :)
Yes Hurdity I was very disappointed re the migraine-at least it only lasted for 1 day rather than the usual 3 days so something to be thankful for I suppose. Still nasty though-got sent home from work because of the nausea, shaking, and zigzag lights in my vision. I'm so fed up with it!
I'd been prescribed 7 days of Utrogestan @100mg oral route and was told to expect a light bleed around day 10 which is happening now-bit more than a light bleed though. No withdrawal migraine thank goodness.
I emailed consultant re migraine and said I'd like to try 7 days of Utro @100mg by vaginal route next month in the hope that it will be less systemic and therefore possibly less likely to cause a migraine and was told to give it a try and let him know how I get on.
Hurdity thanks for all the info re the Utro on the other thread and the great link from Candy-I find it reassuring.
Thanks also to all you other ladies who are posting your experiances re the Utro-it's all grist to the mill. I just hope we all find a permanent solution to the problem VERY soon.
Best Wishes
BXx
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Interestingly having discussed with another member on here, I used Cyclogest 200 mg (designed as pessary or suppository) every other night too for a few months - but only along with 25 mcg patch so very low dose - this caused no build up as no bleed when I stopped the Cyclogest. Cyclo is usually prescribed (by GPs or meno consultants) at double the dose of Utrogestan and not sure why - but Cyclo is not officially licensed for endometrial protection. My good GP who has been prescribing Cyclogest for many years - in preference to synthetic progestins - still would not prescribe it on a conti basis because of concerns about the right dose, so even some very enlightened GPs have their limits on how far they will go and I suppose it does depend on how much time they have to follow the latest research.
Here's to a migraine free Christmas for all prog intolerant women out there! :)
Hurdity x
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Hi Jaycee, :)
Thanks very much-I'll PM you.
B
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Hi all - well, I finished the course of Utro but have not had a proper bleed, only a bit of spotting over 3-4 days.
In the last few days of taking it I developed a horrible backache which unfortunately is a familiar side effect of prog for me. This has ruled out the idea of taking it continually.
I'm going to wait until Feb to try Utro again. If I then have a bleed then I'll be happy that bi-monthly is going to be the way to go for me.
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Further to my last post, having re-read the information on Utro 200 on the EMC website, it says "200mgs at bedtime for 12 days - withdrawal bleeding may occur in the following week". So, it seems you may not necessarily have a bleed every month if only on a low dose of oestrogen.
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Hi Rivadan
That was the same for me towards the end of using Cyclogest - similar natural prog (pessaries). I was on the Estradot 50 patch and using Cyclogest for 11 days per month. My bleeds stopped (even though the migraines didn't!). As I reported the first two monthly cycle using Utro as the prog (12 days) I did get a bleed.
Hurdity x :)
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Did you say you were using Utro 200 mg vaginally Hurdity?
I will see what happens in February. If I don't get a bleed then, I will see my GP and maybe get it checked out.
All things considered bi-monthly is looking like it might be the best option for me though.
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Yes Rivadan - the very same! I decided to stick to the same dose vaginally for 2 months, that others use orally for 1 month cyclically - because a longer cycle needs a stronger prog - even though more gets through when used vaginally, if you see what I mean!
Hurdity x
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Can I just ask a question about Utro. As I have said before my GP gives me sort of "carte blanc" regarding my HRT.
He has let me try Utro 100mg. he has left the *hows and whens* to me, I'm not too sure if I should be taking it every night or could I get away with taking it for only 2 weeks of the month?
I've only taken two so far and I haven't had any negative reactions with it, though I know it is still too early to tell, I am still keeping my fingers crossed. Because with Provera, I only took one 2.5mg and the next day, I seemed to be worse than ever! [talking about mood swings], and it lasted for at least 3 days!
BTW for those who don't know, I'm also using Evorel 50 patches.
cm xx
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Hi cm
Was trying to find your posts to remind me if you were supposed to be on conti (but couldn't find as would take too long!) and noticed you have been registered on here 1 year today so happy MM anniversary ;D
Bascially I would ask - has the doc prescribed you for conti HRT? It is a bit irresponsible of him to leave it completely to you! If he has prescribed 100 mg then that is the official dose for continuous use (Days 1 - 25). You will see from the discussion that some have been prescribed variations of this but under medical supervision.
If you took it for only 2 weeks of the month then you would be on a cycle again and may expect a bleed after withdrawal of the Utro. The normal dose for cyclical use is 200 mg taken orally for 12 days per month.
So I would say 100 mg orally 2 weeks per month may not be enough to oppose the endometrial build up - unless as I said you are especially prog intolerant and your specialist may is monitoring you. There may not be much build up if you are post-meno and only on 50 mcg oestrogen but there could still be some risk here.
Therefore I would take it (ie 100 mg) from Days 1 - 25 initially as per the instructions or until we have it confirmed that it is OK to be completely continuous.
I expect the others who have been prescribed differently will be along to say what they use as I can't remember each person - but I think it is minor tweaking of the conti dose, or a shorter cycle for the cyclical one.
Really pleased if the utro seems to be agreeing with you so far! Long may it last :)
Hurdity x :)
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If it's suiting you, I'd stick to the prescribed regime - why not? :yes:
Bette x
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Thanks again Hurdity. I can't believe it's one year today since I joined MM. WOW! how time flies when you're having fun!. Lol
Yes I am post meno. TBH he did ask me if I wanted 200mg or 100mg, of course I opted for 100mg.
I think because no matter what he says to try and deter me from taking HRT, I always come back with some kind of statement that I've read on here. So I think the poor man is at his Witt's end with me. Lol
I don't mind taking it for 25 days especially if it agrees with me. I just live in hope that one day I'll see some evidence that post menopausal women do not need any progesterone. Until then I'm looking for ways where I can at least, take as little as possible.
Thanks again for all the advise. [I'm sure it wont be long before I'm needing it again ::)]
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I'm 5 days into my second round of 200mgs Utro and feeling horribly sleepy again. I was intending to go bi-monthly but then I thought I may as well give it another go and see if I felt any better this time.
The first two days I tried using it vaginally but I had horrible cramps. To be honest it just feels like way too much progesterone. I don't think this is going to be the thing for me. I have to consider what will happen during the hayfever season when I'm dosed up with antihistamine too - I will be comatose!
Back to the drawing board.
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Hi Rivadan
Sorry to hear that Utrogestan is making you so tired - but I think that is one of the side effects.
I can't remember what oestrogen you use and can't find on the thread - are you taking tablets? Apols for forgetting - Christmas has happened since we last spoke on here!!!
Coincidentally I have also just started my second course of Utro (vaginally) - the first was November - if you remember I am trying out a two-monthly regime. Interestingly I do not feel anywhere near as tired as last time - and did not have that head not wanting to leave the pillow feeling first thing in the morning for the first few days. In fact at the moment I hardly notice it - I feel bloated in the lower abdomen and have to undo my trousers in the evening but that's no big deal (maybe too much choc and alcohol over Xmas!!). Also feel pressure on the bladder which makes me more in the night than when on oestro (but on more than twice - usually only once) - but again that's no big deal either.
The difference since the first time is that I am now on Orthogynest for VA - started in Dec, and what I think is that this has plumped up the nether regions so that less progesterone is absorbed systemically - therefore there is less in my body. If that's the case this is fantastic.
The other thing Rivadan is that you are still doing monthly and maybe some prog has remained in your system after only a fortnight off, so you maybe feeling the effects more? After 6 weeks I think mine (stored prog) has probably disappeared.
Re way too much prog - some of the meno specialists only prescribe 100 mg for vaginal use because so much more is absorbed directly to where it is needed via this route. Are you able to find someone (meno-clinic?) who could prescribe this for you and try it again vaginally to see if you still get cramps using this?
Hope things improve for you.
Sorry have no idea how any of the HRT preparations mix with anti-histamines....
Hurdity x :) Also have to use the only smiley left with a santa hat on as it is the 12th day of Christmas today - now is 12th night!!! :-\ :-\ :-\
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Hi Rivadan I'm using Utrogestan, but I've chosen to use 100mg for 25 days out of 28 days and find [fingers crossed] that although I do sleep much better, I'm not as tired during the day, now that my system is more used to it.
I have had the odd bleed, but compared to how I felt on other progesterones that is nothing.
I do hope you find a *system* that is right for you. I do know how bloody awful it is when you're struggling to find some sort of combination that suits us.
cm xx
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Rivadan - wouldn't it be worth trying the 100mg dose and seeing how long you can take it without getting too many unpleasant side effects? It may be wishful thinking but maybe half the strength wouldn't affect you so much and you might even be able to tolerate the full 25 days. :-\
Bette x
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Yes, I think I'm going to have a total break from it all for a couple of months (which is probably about as long as I'll be able to stand the hot flushes!) and then review the situation.
Its become very obvious to me that prog in any form just doesn't suit me - headaches, backache, tummy cramps all appear in varying degrees of discomfort whenever I take it - plus the hair shedding (which was my main reason for trying Utro over the synthetics).
I really can't stand the foggy headed feeling Utro gives me. I also have an added issue which is that I periodically have to take antihistamines which also make me feel tired, and the two combined would be a killer!
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"It's become very obvious to me that prog in any form just doesn't suit me"
Oh Rivadan, sounds like you're at the same stage as me. Sorry to hear that the Utro doesn't suit.
Utro use 100 or 200 oral or vag, sequi or conti also turns me into a zombie - literally I can't get out of bed. Plus other awful side effects, including migraine.
Been through the spectrum of progesterones (synthetic and natural) HRTs. Even if I start off feeling 'sort of bearable' on a particular prog, within a few months the continued, cumulative effect sets in and I can't tolerate it any longer. So I try another, ditto. Each time, it's back to square one.
Utro is supposedly less androgenic but by day 5, I still experienced tingling scalp (telegon effluvium) and shedding.
At each visit to the meno clinic prog intolerance is discussed in depth. Now the only suggested 'way forward' is a hyster in order to be able to take estro only - but I'm struggling to accept this drastic step.
Sorry not to be more encouraging - just sharing experience to relate, for information purposes.
There is also the option, suggested by meno clinic, of Utro 100 vag, alternate nights, conti, no break, could be worth a try.
Can only imagine Utro + anti-histamine combo would be total knock-out. Have taken anti-h in the past (pre-meno) and even the non-drowsy ones pack a punch.
Please let us know what you decide as your next step after a few months off. Are you able to get a meno clinic referral for some specialist advice?
Night_Owl
x
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Hi Night Owl
I'm not sure we have a meno clinic in our area but will mention it next time I visit my GP. Hysterectomy does sound very drastic and I think I would also have difficulty getting my head round that idea --- but I'll tell you if I feel the same in a few months time!
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I think I spoke to soon because now have a migraine - headache not too bad with Ibuprofen, but all the other things I usually get with it - total exhaustion and nausea, and wakes me in the night until it goes after 2-3 days
Might have been the two glasses of port on 12th night Thurs - which was about Day 4 of the Utro. I was so used to having a few celebratory drinks over Xmas - and this is fine when I am on the oestro alone (after the prog has gone). So thought it would be OK. Will have to try again next time with the Utro and completely avoid alcohol to see if I really am OK on it or not, and will serve me right if I get a withdrawal migraine next w/e after I stop them although I didn't last time. :(
Reading another post I was seriously considering going against all I believe, giving up all of this and trying Tibolone esp because of the libido, but reading there is defo an increased chance of endo cancer with it, according to the product details so maybe not - sorry that's off topic...
Hope you are feeling better now Rivadan - it's a right pain all of this, and I'm totally fed up too (but maybe my fault...)
Hurdity x
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Hi LD! I'm doing OK on them thanks. About 5 more and I'll be through my first course without any blips. Long may it continue!
What are you going to do about Utro? Are you still going to give them a try?
cm xx
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Since I last posted I've spent 24 hrs nursing a blinding headache and being sick (this is after only 4 days of Utro which I stopped abruptly) but today I've started a withdrawal bleed. I'm glad about this at least as it will round this episode off neatly!
My overriding feeling this weekend has been "what are you doing to your poor old bod?" Definitely time to give it a rest for a while I think.
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:bighug: Rivadan.
Bette x
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Rivadan, sending sympathies - how awful, I know the feeling well. Hope it passes and you feel better soon. Maybe the Utro 'cumulative' effect happened quickly on month 2 of use (it took about 6 for me). Cold turkey may be what your body needs, for a while anyway.
Hurdity, sorry to read about the headache - maybe it was the port, possibly upsetting your liver combined with the Utro. So difficult to fathom what the body is up to, isn't it. Guess by month 3 use you'll know if it suits or not.
[Tibolone - thought about that a last year, the clinic put me off it though, said it wouldn't suit as I'm so med sensitive, and it's supposedly androgenic.]
Good luck to those with continuing the Utro.
Night_Owl
x
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I'm sorry to hear everyone struggling with Utrogestan. I took this for a year, juggled between 100mgs and 200mgs, with docs consent, also with 1mg estrogen and 2mgs, worked very well although i did have one breakthrough bleed because of the inconsistency but generally light bleeds with no side effects, until i noticed bad breath when taking utrogestan. I took them at night and never noticed any sleepyness and i'm pretty sleepy most of the time.
I now take Femoston 2/10 and have to say it is Amazing. No unwanted symptoms at all. Shhh, better not speak to soon.
Eddie. x
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Really interesting Eddie about the bad breathe thing with the Utro.
I have noticed a really nasty taste in my mouth since starting them, but I put it down to my patches or my new turbohaler.
I do hope it's not the utro though because I'm doing OK with them and I was beginning to think that I would never find a progesterone that would suit me....
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Definitely remember the Dog Breath on Utro - when taken tablet or vag route. No amount of mouth wash would take it away. Maybe it's some sort of effect it has on the liver, who knows.
Night_Owl
x
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Even used vag, prog still gets into the blood stream and ends up being filtered by the liver, to a lesser extent than oral though. Am only guessing that there may be a connection with the breath thing. I knew I had dog breath, had the awful taste too.
Sorry to hear about your horrid migraine, J, it's so disconcerting when it happens, knocks me off my perch for days. Hope you feel better soon. Are you still on alternate nights 100 Utro, no break?
Night_Owl
x
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How dissapointing Night_Owl re- the bad breathe. I knew there would have to be a catch. :(
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Hi,
for everyone who is on utrogestan I have great sympathy, thank goodness I don't have to take it now cos I have had a hysterectomy but I do remember it well and not in a good way. Hope you all get some relief soon. xx
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Doesn't seem to happen for me on vag route - as not so much prog gets absorbed - unless there is something hubby isn't telling me...... ;D
Also yay!!!!! Again did not get a migraine on withdrawal from prog - just in the middle. Now having a bleed - noticeable and mild cramps but not too heavy ( so that's 6 weeks without prog and 12 days Utro). Next time round absolutely no alcohol :( and see if no migraine at all.....
So sorry to hear about migraines Rivadan and jaycee - what rotten luck. This is why I have decided on a bleed because it can be unpredictable and wouldn;t want to give up alcohol for ever!
Just another thing - as I'm not really used to periods having previously stopped sequi HRT just over a year ago and they were almost non-existent then. It's odd having to deal with VA products and tampons at the same time. Er what do you do - stick up the pessary ( for the VA) and then a tampon? I use Orthgynest which is very oozy... Might change to Vagifem next prescrip.
Eddie why did you stop using the utrogestan in the end?
Hurdity x :)
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Thanks Paisley, Utro can be a bad experience for some. I'm back to Cyclogest 400 pessaries x 11, 6 weekly, not great by any means. May be joining the hyster club later this year.
I don't seem to get the dog breath / rotten cabbage taste on Cyclo - also don't recall getting it on any of the other progs - been through quite a few now, synthetic and natural - just got all the other ghastly side effects.
CM, we're all different (I'm particularly medication sensitive) - the taste thing may pass for you.
Good grief - we all need STRENGTH to take this flipping toxic prog.
Night_Owl
x
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That's good news, Hurdity, only the one migraine instead of two ... we have to be grateful for these things(!).
I use Vagifem 25 which are tiny and not mushy - during a (heavy) bleed I delay taking it by a day or two so it's not at the full-on flow stage (assume it would just drop out?).
Prefer not to use tampons these days though, use Always, such a great range of sizes. I get fed up sometimes with having to insert so many different things into my poor vag, ie. vag prog, then VF, sometimes Canesten, or probiotics for thrush, vitamin e capsules if feeling dry, then tampons - hence Always.
Mind you, always thought meno meant NO MORE use of sanitary items, grrr.
Having said that, I have used VF during a bleed (sometimes they are a bit lighter, for whatever reason, I know not). Ortho then tampon should be okay, at least keeps it in for a while!
Have you noticed any change / improvement yet, Hurd, vag or bladder with the Ortho?
Night_Owl
x
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Hope so Night_Owl. I don't think my OH would have the courage to tell me my breathe smells bad...not these days anyway ;D
May have to bite the bullet and just ask him straight. If he puts on his body armour before he gives me his answer, that will give me a clue. :-\ :D
cm xx
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Thanks for the info Night_Owl - I've pm'ed you re the vag :o
Hmm yes never thought I would still be shoving so many things up there still
Just re-inforce the quote I put on the boards over Xmas where Jennifer Saunders as Eddie, said to Saffy in the recent AbFab as she leaned over to kiss her and Saffy questioned the crackling sound - and I have to repeat it because it is so apt, (as I slap and stick and poke all my products in the appropriate places...)
"I don't have any hormones darling, I'm just held together with patches pills and suppositories!!"
Hurdity x :)
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HA HA. Love the fantastic Eddie quote, that is totally how I feel these days - held together by meds, none of the 'real me' left, all chemically supported.
Psyching myself up for the prog Cyclogest use next week - know that I will be going to the rotten Dark Cave again.
x 12 this time as I have left it longer - am going to be a devil though and cut a small piece off each pessary. As discussed previously, 400mg seems way too much, too heavy handed, but the clinic won't sanction 200mg.
Dreading it, as always ... sigh ...
Night_Owl
x
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Hurdity. I stopped the Utrogestan mainly because of the breath thing, i would waken up in the middle of the night and think the dog had had the runs in my bedroom, i used to get up and search for it, because i could smell such a foul smell everywhere i went. I became so paranoid about it, working in a shop too, so that was enough really.
Eddie. x
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It's funny now, and i can remember when i mentioned it on here months back it raised a few laughs, my wee dog wasn't laughing though. Love Ab-fab too, i bought the episodes from iTunes.
Eddie. x
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Eddie
:rofl:
Hurdity x :)
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:scottie: Eddie. x
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Post from george from Evorel conti thread:
"Hi hurdity, I notice you are using utrogestan. This has been suggested to me as being one of the kinder progesterones. I have read a lot of threads where women were not too happy with this, tiredness and bad breath I think. How do you find it and are you conti or sequi. Need to make up my mind this week as it is either this or the coil.
Thanks
Xxx"
Hi george
There is no doubt that Utrogestan is one of the kinder progesterones - it is identical to our natural progesterone we produce whereas all the other pills and patches contain synthetic progestins.
The thing about side effects is that most women throughout their fertile lives have some sort of reaction to progesterone. Increasing amounts during the menstrual cycle (and much larger amounts in pregnancy) can cause breast tenderness, bloating, tiredness, sometimes nausea. :(
The rapid fall in progesterone just before the period ( ie the last week) also causes symptoms in most women - in particular headaches, tension, irritability, >:( fuzzy head, anxiety, weepiness etc.
For some women these symptoms are intolerable monthly throughout their lives.
I only say this because it would be unusual to find any progesterone that caused no side effects whatsoever - either while levels are high, or when they decrease, and lead to the period.
Those women who have suffered from bad pms - are much more likely to have problems finding a suitable HRT progesterone/progestogen.
Therefore you are reading about those who unfortunately fall into this category and are struggling to find something that suits them.
How were you with pms and I can't find what you've tried before? Also are you supposed to be on conti or cyclical regime?
I would certainly recommend trying Utrogestan.
The main side effects I found are just tiredness while taking it - but that is really minor! I use it vaginally (200 mg) as I don't like taking HRT by mouth. I am using it every two months as I am post meno and don't want to feel tired all the time so I'm putting up with a bleed. Some women as you've read have found it gives them migraines. I got a migraine with it but that's because I mixed it with alcohol ( I think!). :o
Both times ( I;ve only taken it for 2 cycles so far) I did not get a migraine after I came off it, just before the bleed, whereas when I was using another natural prog - Cyclogest pessaries - I always got a 3 day migraine when I stopped each month. :(
Some say it builds up in your system over a few months so I need to wait and see whether further migraines develop... :-\
I don't have a problem with the breath ( and hadn't heard of this until recently!) because I don't take it by mouth but it's a question of weighing up all the pros and cons and see how your body reacts.
On the positive side natural progesterone has a sedative effect (which manifests as tiredness) but in smaller doses women have reported a calming effect. :) This is less likely to happen with the synthetic progestogens which can have the opposite effect ( depressive). :(
Do read the threads on the Mirena coil - several have posted recently - there are quite extreme reactions to this. It seems to be either wonderful :) or dreadful! :'(
Good luck and keep us posted with whatever you decide.
Hurdity x :)
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Hi george
That's great!! - I do hope you are OK on it. As you say you've got nothing to lose so it's worth a try.
Interested to hear you are also being prescribed two monthly as this is what I do, 12 days every two months - but I only have 50 mcg oestrogen. Was the doc happy with the 75 mcg too?
I would like to increase my oestrogen to 75 mcg but worried it might be too much with only two monthly prog because of the bleeds - having had about 15 months without them until recently, so would be interested in what sort of bleeds you get on this. You are younger than me and peri meno so of course it's different as I'm a bit past it ;D.
Anyway good luck with it all and hope you begin to feel better soon when your body gets used to the extra oestrogen.
Hurdity x :)
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Well done and good luck with that loveydovey! Let's hope the gynae says yes, and you are able to tolerate it without adverse side effects - you will probably feel tired as you would expect from using prog but fingers crossed for you. Let us know how you get on.
Hurdity x :)
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Keeping my fingers crossed for you LD. Do let us know how you get on, wont you?
cm xx
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Yes george that was the part that worried me too. We're supposed to eat a light snack before bed to keep our anxiety at bay and yet we're supposed to take Utro before we go to bed, on an empty stomach!
What I do is have a light snack about an hour before bed, then take my Utro in bed, after I've watched a bit of TV. I've had no problem so far. :)
cm xx
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Hi LD - it depends if you are taking it continuously. How long is it then since your last period because you may still need to have a bleed depending on your age and I can't remember how old you are.
Taz x
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Because you still have your womb though doesn't it still need protecting? Did you go for the permanent contraception solution after it?
Taz x
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If you use a progesterone all the time then you shouldn't get a bleed - unless you are one of the women who are like me and bleed continuously on continuous progesterone. The Novasure doesn't always stop periods completely. There are other ladies on here who have had it done - perhaps they will pick up on this if you start a new thread about HRT after Novasure?
Taz x
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Hi loveydovey
If you have been prescibed prog on a conti basis ( ie no bleed), you are right in that when Utrogestan is prescribed on a conti basis you only take it (100 mg capsule) Day 1- 25. Day 25-28 you stop so theroetically you could get a small withdrawal bleed. When prog is given continously it interferes with the build up of the lining so there shouldn't be much. It should be nothing like a proper period.
Earlier on this thread (I think) there was discussion about whether it (Utrogestan) can be prescribed completely continuously and there is one member who is doing this, who will hopefully be along. You would need to check with your gynae whether this was OK - and in your circumstances after the op especially there could be minimal build up.
It is all a question of weighing up the different treatments and the side effects we get. For each of us individually we have to decide what we can put up with and what is intolerable and make a decision from there. For many, norethisterone has horrible side effects which are worse than having to put up with a small bleed. I don't think there is a magic solution, short of hysterectomy - and that carries its own burden and hormonal shock for the body.
I do hope you feel better soon - sounds like you are really exhausted...
Hurdity x :)
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Hi LD.
Hurdity is right. Norethisterone is one of the most intolerable progs. I had awful pmt's with it. >:(
You may be lucky though, who knows. I get a very small withdrawal bleed [well, just spotting really] with the Utro, but for me that's a walk in the park, compared to all other progs that I have tried.
The spotting only lasts a few days if your lucky LD. Why not just give it a try? who knows, it may suit you. ;)
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saw the gynae today and of course forgot my notes at home so forgot to ask him about vaginal Utrogestan.
However he did say that the not eating with Utrogestan thing depends on how much you eat. I am happy to report that a ginger biccie at bedtime is just fine ;D ( a full meal is not)
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hey george that's great news!
Exactly - if it's just the tiredness it's copable with isn;t it - after all that's what happens during periods anyway. Fingers crossed that you continue to feel OK and that you don't get a withdrawal headache.
I'd forgotten that you were on a two-monthly cycle. Is that just you deciding to do this or did the doc agree to this? I presume you are on 200 mg like me?
Hurdity x :)
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Yes George. That was the only down side for me too, but as I've said before, it's a breeze, compared to other progs I've tried.
Glad [other than the tiredness] it's working out for you. Long may it continue. ;)
cm xx
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Excuse me for butting in on the thread, but does this mean you could have a higher dose (say 2-3mg) of oestrogen with the 200mg Utrogestan used 2-monthly?
The only reason I would be interested in this is that I've read research articles that say women with hairloss from menopause alopecia can improve BUT usually need a higher than usual dose of oestrogen.
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Rivadan You are not butting in at all!!!!
Interesting this and your prescription george - that they are happy with 75 mcg oestro and the two monthly Utro. It is the longer cycle that I am using ( ie two monthly) that is stopping me from increasing the oestrogen, as well as my age (58).
Rivadan - If you look at Tridestra the only licensed 3 month preparation, that does give 2 mg estradiol - but it's estradiol valerate which I understand gives a lower serum level of estradiol than the estradiol in the other preparations.
However I know there are several on here who have been prescribed longer cycle HRT using separate oestorgen and Utrogestan I think - so maybe there is someone also taking tablets on a longer cycle? Hopefully they will be along to let us know.
Hurdity x :)
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I've noticed that the instructions with the 100mg capsules indicate they are either for use for 12 days monthly or for 25 days (which will give less of a bleed).
This would imply that with lower doses of oestrogen the 100mg strength used monthly is sufficient. I'm sure I've read something about this somewhere before (possibly Dr Studd's site) but can't for the life of me seem to locate it now.
If this is the case then its likely that with the 200mg capsules you could take a higher dose of oestrogen - perhaps even if used bi-monthly and especially if used vaginally?
Just throwing this out in case anyone can remember the article I mentioned.
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I am on 1mg oestradiol valerate (low dose) and Mr Gynae is happy with 100mg Utrogestan for 14 days per month.
I did have a scan though to check how thick the lining of the womb was.
I think I am just starting my first bleed since August, 5 days into the Utro cycle, so mad as usual; it's certainly not an exact science ie 3 days after the Utro, you have a bleed. Hormones have a mind of their own....
Btw does Utro give anyone else nightmares? I've had some crackers just before waking up the last 4 days.
This am's was so vivid that I can still remember every daft detail.
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I'd trade the gorilla for the stressful nonsense I dreamt early this morning. That one sounds fun. Were you watching King Kong before bed? :D
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Utro doesn't exactly have a very good reputation for side effects does it - drowsiness, dog breath and scary dreams - no wonder its not very commonly used - its only for the brave ;D
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Hi Rivadan
I do beg to disagree!
Compared to side effects like depression, irritability, migraine, headachey head fog and permanent PMT caused by some other synthetic progestins - these side effects are minor. The breath thing must only affect some women, and progesterone is known for its sedative effect, and occurs in the second half of our natural menstrual cycle anyway.
It is not commonly used I am sure because it is much cheaper to prescribe pills like premique than anything else and separate patches/pills and utro would be more expensive. I also think docs prefer us not to be messing around with separates and seem to prescribe it on request rather than as a matter of course. It also seems many have not heard of it - eespecially the old school docs brought up on the synthetic oestrogens and progesterones, widely used used in the early days of HRT before bioidenticals were produced.
For anyone who has problems on the progesterone part of HRT this is the most natural route and least likely to cause the horrible side effects mentioned above.
Being bio-identical it mimics as far as possible the natural progesterone in our bodies. I know many of us do not like taking/using it but it does have other functions in the body besides reproduction or protecting the womb so despite the tiredness etc I am happy to use it and would strongly recommend its use to anyone - at least to try it for a few months.
I'll get down off my soap box now....
Hurdity x :)
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Utro's not that bad. At least not in 100mg doses. Very manageable and helps sleep (a bit) which is a good thing in my book.
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Errr ... I was just trying to be amusing!
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Ooops sorry! Tis amazing how the written word is interpreted!!!!!
This is how I should have responded - told you I was on my soap boax!
:rofl: :rofl:
- sorry Rivadan I spoiled your joke... :o
xx
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me too. I'll look forward to dog breath just to add to my list of fun things that happen with meno. Will just have to disguise it with chocolate ;D
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Errr ... I was just trying to be amusing!
Well, if it's any consolation, I laughed out loud when I read your post earlier! ;)
Bette x
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Hi Ladies,
Sorry I've not been around for some time-not been at all well. Anyway, last time I took Utrogeston I ended up with the most hideous migraine and was in bed for 3 days. It was so bad that I've decided to stop everything-oestrogel,testosterone and the dreaded P-I just want to see how I get on without it. I can't cope with the throught of having a sick blistering migraine every month.
I think that if I want to take oestrogen I'm going to have to have a hysterectomy, but I think as night-owl said-it seems a bit drastic.
B
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Hi Bombus
Good to hear from you but not good to hear that you are still having problems with the prog even on low dose Utrogestan - it seems for those who are extremely intolerant to added progesterone not even natural prog will work at the doses that are prescribed generally. :( I presume you have been given the lowest dose that is deemed safe enough to prevent thickening?
Of course in our natural menstrual cycle it would start off low and following ovulation would start to rise, up to a peak amount and then decline, all in the space of two weeks. I am sure this natural rise and fall is easier to cope with than getting a high dose all at once even for those who suffer with pms - but of course I presume very difficult to prescribe, and then could still give rise to migraines.
It really is rotten isn't it? We know we definitely benefit from the oestrogen for our long term health, and progesterone also has a metabolic role, but there are some for whom this is ruined by the dreadful side effects from the prog which far outweigh the benefits.
Good luck with trying to come off it - not sure what your oestrogel dose was but I'm sure you know if you come off suddenly you can get rebound side effects - and worsening of symptoms, at least initially. But there are others on here also trying to come off - I'm sure you will have seen the threads.
I do sympathise with you Bombus and sending you a :hug:
Hurdity x :)
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Hi Bombus
Sorry to read about your 3 day migraine, it really is hideous (I had the same a few weeks ago and get them often).
I've also got to do something as I can't carry on like this every month - and I really have had enough of debilitating prog side effects that are 'unlive-able'. Have started by cutting down Oestrogel to one pump and going to get further advice from the meno clinic and take it from there. Last year when I went Cold Turkey I had a rapid tidal wave return of all symptoms within 10 days, caved in and went back on.
Have sent you a PM.
Hope you feel better soon.
Night_Owl
x
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PS - Bombus, these are the threads I was referring to in PM:
Have you come off HRT and managed to stay off?
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14175.0.html
Anyone heard of Menostar?
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14117.0.html
As mentioned, I'm going to ask re: Menostar at next meno clinic treatment review.
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I think you have to think through carefully what taking oestrogen means to you, whether you are inclined to be a long-term user, and then bear in mind that you might have another 30 years to live. That may make hysterectomy a more attractive proposition.
The problem I find is that when I'm in the midst of a negative prog reaction phase I just want to throw the towel in. Its not until things settle down again that I'm able to think things through clearly.
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Hi Hurdity :),
Thanks for the Hug :). I only took 100mg of Utro for two nights V route. Those two little capsules were enough to put me in bed for three days with an incapitating migraine. I'm wonderng if the sudden shock of it entering my system is the cause of the migraines-and that possibly a low constant dose e.g. every other night or three nights might just be tolerable rather than putting my body through the shock of it's appearance each month. I'm thinking this because the migraine doesn't last for the whole 7 days that I'm on the Utro.
Hi Night-Owl :),
Thanks for the links and pm--I've replied. You really have been through the mill with it all Night-Owl-I do empathise with you. Do you think you'd ever consider a hysterectomy?
Hi Susan :),
It's great that you've found something that works-----long may it last!
I haven't completely ruled out a hysterectomy. It's the recovery time and enforced rest that concerns me. Also I worry about lack of support from my GP. She's not a big fan of HRT --The last time I saw her she told me I should really be thinking about coming off HRT and be completely off it by the age of 55! So I'm not sure a hysterectomy will go down well with her.
Oh well, let's see what happens over the next few months. It's 9 days since I last applied the oestrogel and no hot flushes yet. I'm expecting them anytime soon!
Thanks for all your comments ladies.
Bx
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When we started talking about Utrogestan some months back there seemed to be a general feeling that this was a "kinder" prog.
I have to say I haven't found it so. To me even the lower dose, taken on alternate days, seems to pack too great a punch, and gives me very uncomfortable "period pains".
My conclusion is that while Utrogestan's definitely worth a try it shouldn't be thought of as in some way superior (even if it does seem to be a favourite of private clinics).
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Hi Rivadan
Really sorry to hear that utrogestan is not working for you. :(
Have you found another one that works better or are you still looking? Do hope you manage to find something that makes you feel OK but it may be that you like Bombus and Night_Owl are extremely intolerant to any sort of added prog taken/applied.
As far as what is superior is concerned - it depends on what you mean by superior! If you mean that it causes the least bad side effects - that's a matter of opinion and how differently we all experience it. Personally it is far superior to anything else I've tried - even the other natural prog - Cyclogest - and I'm sure that has something to do with the dosage prescribed. I think for most women who have prog problems the worst are the migraines, and for others it's the anxiety, fog head, depression, irritability, decline of libido that seems to come with some of the synthetic progestins like norethisterone or Mirena. Others are happy on lots of them!
My view is that if you can tolerate it - apart from the expected tiredness and other usual prog effects, then it is superior to all other synthetic progestins - because it is bio-identical and therefore more natural, and the body will benefit from any other metabolic effects of progesterone besides protection of the uterus.
From what I've read (and sorry haven't got a link to hand) synthetic progestins do not have the same beneficial effects other than this (protection of the womb), and therefore since we have evolved to use it in a cyclical way I am prepared to put up with it ( but I am lucky in that Utro has only minor side effects). I would not want to take any prog on a conti basis though because of the sedative effects - but as always it is a balance between the benefits of oestrogen, whether you want a bleed and the side effects of the prog.
I know also that remaining cyclical for a long time is not without its risks - I think the latest research re breast cancer shows that oestrogen and prog is more risky than oestro alone or no HRT? (Really must get some links sorted out!).
Hi again Bombus - as I said before it could well be the sudden increase is not tolerated well as I said earlier - this is not how it works in the natural cycle. One day there, next day at v high concentrations. It;s a pity there aren't eg 3 different strengths eg start at 50 mg for a few days, then 100 then finally 200 mg for a couple of days and then decrease in the same way. Of course that might prolong the withdrawal effects of pmt.....
There is always the option of going on a longer cycle - like I am doing - every two months which means that any side effects only occur 6 x per year and the same for the bleed. Again probably not without some risks. Not sure how long I will want to put up with a bleed - since I am now 58 but I never really stopped for any length of time - probably about a year was the longest.
Why aren't the researchers looking into all this? After all most of us will spend nearly 30-50% of our lives post meno so we deserve better than this!
Hurdity x
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My conclusion is that while Utrogestan's definitely worth a try it shouldn't be thought of as in some way superior
I agree Rivadan, Utro is so often mentioned as almost the answer for prog intolerance. For some, there's no escaping the hormone fluctuation and resulting migraine that ANY prog creates when introduced into the body.
Cyclogest is also another 'natural' that creates the same migraine effect.
Bombus, the Utro 100 vag alternate nights supposedly avoids the fluctuations - for me personally it didn't work as I felt vile and exhausted ALL of the time. However, that's just me - I can get migraines even on the estrogen only section.
It always comes back to trial and error, and factoring in that what may work for a while may not continue to work in the longer term.
http://www.menopausehysterectomy.com/hrt-progesterone-progestinspart3.htm
However, in some women it is virtually impossible to include a progestogen in their HRT regimen due to the severity of the negative effects.
After many prog trials, I know that I definitely fall into this category. Of the women who take HRT, 20% will be prog intol and within that category half will be HIGHLY prog intol.
Gynae has said that as migraine has returned (from teens) since meno hit, having a hyster and taking estro only would NOT necessarily eliminate migraines, won't know until it's all done.
Know this is not encouraging - but I'm just telling it how it is, the reality. I has taken me a long time to get to this realisation. Anybody reading this thinking of trying Utro, please don't be put off - as we're all so very different.
Night_Owl
x
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It;s a pity there aren't eg 3 different strengths eg start at 50 mg for a few days, then 100 then finally 200 mg for a couple of days and then decrease in the same way. Of course that might prolong the withdrawal effects of pmt.....
Hurdity, that's a very good suggestion - more gradual, wonder why that is totally overlooked in all progs - as you say, one day no prog, next day, lots - then the reverse happens.
There needs to be more research into this but guess with cutbacks .... like that's ever gonna happen ....
Night_Owl
x
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I have to admit I don't care tuppence if what I take is natural, synthetic, taken orally, vaginally or via any other orifice as long as it gives me less grief.
My own 'natural' progesterone caused me absolute hell whereas norethisterone, apart from the effect on my hair, was fab. Maybe Utro's a bit too close to nature for me.
I still have the prog used in the Femoston products left to try. So there's still hope!
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Hi Rivadan
I have to admit I don't care tuppence if what I take is natural, synthetic, taken orally, vaginally or via any other orifice as long as it gives me less grief.
:rofl:
This conjures up hilarious images.....
Hurdity x :)
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How have you got to take it I think jaycee means LD? What dose how often and is it vaginally or orally?
Taz x
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have to say this cycle, I felt better on the Utrog 100mg than I do off it. Now it's stopped (I take 14/ a month)
I can't sleep properly and my M.E is worse.
Does the oestrogen go 'low' while you are on it? I find it hard on so little sleep.
Mind you, so far on HRT, IF I get a bleed, it's during the Utro cycle, not afterwards, so who knows what's going on.
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I've found Utrogestan a lot more unpredictable than Norethisterone. With the synthetic I had a predictable bleed 3 days after stopping, which lasted about 5 days in all.
So far on Utrogestan I've had bleeds 7 days in and 10 days in. They were only about 3 days in length.
I've just been trying the 100mgs vag alternate day regime but have started a full blown bleed on the 5th capsule. I don't know if this is because I had an HRT free month before I re-started. I must say it feels as if I've been blasted with dynamite!
This has really made me think that if and when I do finally throw the towel in with HRT I shall end with a course of prog just to make absolutely sure there's nothing left lingering within!
I have to conclude Utrogestan isn't the one for me - although it is definitely effective - and if you have trouble sleeping/relaxing (not me!) - its definitely worth trying.
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Yes I know what you mean Jaycee. I had breakthrough bleeding (or rather spotting I think I would describe it as) when I was on Kliovance, which is a conti tablet. That went on for a couple of weeks then stopped completely.
This is MUCH more than that. Its truly like one of my old periods, complete with the pains. Its a bit concerning that if I'd continued to stay off the HRT this would presumably have been hanging around inside - eek! I do have Utrogestan to thank for that.
I hope you continue to have success with the new regime. The vaginal route was certainly better for me in terms of causing no drowsiness or dry mouth.
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I don't think its at all advisable to try and achieve a no bleed cycle until you're at least 1 year post meno. Most of the no bleed tablets do specify that on the instruction leaflet. Utrogestan is a bit different because it advises taking 100mgs orally for 25 days of the month and then having a break when a bleed may or may not happen. If you are still in peri meno then I would think it most likely you would have a bleed.
George, there are some of us who have been "experimenting" with taking Utrogestan in various ways to achieve a no bleed situation but we are (I believe anyway) all post menopausal and have done a lot of research into it. Therefore I would only ever advise using it as per the patient instruction leaflet.
Hope this helps.
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I thought this was quite interesting - had my blood pressure checked this week and its down to 120/70. This had been up to 130/90 while I was taking norethisterone. Coincidence??
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Raised blood pressure is listed amongst the many potential side effects of norethisterone...
Hurdity x
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That's interesting Hurdity as it doesn't appear in the patient information leaflet.
Taz
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The dose of norethisterone in the leaflet I looked at is 5 mg so much higher than in conti HRT - not sure what dose you were taking Rivadan or what the HRT was? This is the one I looked at:
http://www.medicines.org.uk/guides/norethisterone/blood%20clotting
Also if you look at the leaflet (the SPC = summary of product characteristics)leaflet on elleste duet conti (as an example of an HRT containing norethisterone) it says hypertension ( high blood pressure) is one of the conditions which could recur or be aggravated when taking it ( though doesn't say this is specficially due to the norethisterone here as it's a combi product).
http://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/20964/SPC/Elleste+Duet+Conti/
I was really just saying that maybe this could have caused Rivadan's raised blood pressure - but of course there are lots of other causes too I understand.
Hurdity x
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Stopping Norethisterone is the only change I've made, so is the only obvious thing I can think of that may have caused the change in my BP.
The reason I posted on this thread is that it may be useful information for anyone thinking of switching to Utrogestan.
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I am one of those ladies that my Dr lets me use Uterogestan only every 3 months and then 100mg daily for 14 days. I am very tiny and do not weigh very much so he said that I could get away with the lower dose? After reading all these posts, I got a bit worried that I was underdosing myself but all my scans so far show that the endometrial lining remains thin. I prefer this regime and also use the Oestrogen Gel Pump 1 and a half pumps daily. This has worked well for me over the years and I have been symptom free, however I do prefer to use the Uterogestan on a 3 monthly cycle as it does not come without its symptoms, tummy ache, sore boobs etc. But thinking that perhaps I should use it every 2 months instead now? May go onto that and see what my next scan looks like but prefer the Uterogestan to the synthetic Progestegins.
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Do you use the 100mg or 200mg as I am not able to get 200mg so thought that I would have to pop x 2 100mg tabs oh and I use them vaginally, find it easier! :)
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That's really interesting about the weight/dosage ratio - they do that with steroids I seem to remember.
No comfort for me, being a big 11 stoner though!!
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Hi Cassie and all
I use Utrogestan on a two-monthly cycle. Just on my third cycle now.
I was prescribed 200 mg - supposed to use it monthly but GP agreed two monthly was OK.
I do 12 days vaginally.
Oestrogen as Estradot 50 - I think that's approx equivalent to 2 pumps oestrogel.
I am 9 stone and 5'1''. (Just lost 10 pounds and wondering if I need to up my oestrogen due to loss of oestro in fat cells.....).
If your scans show the lining is thin then no need to worry at all. Your oestrogen dose is not high. Just keep checking. You will be able to tell by the bleeds anyway. If they end up very heavy you will know there is a build-up.
Mine last a week and are very light - only need to use two thingies per day and one at night at the most.
I am 58 and about 4 years post-meno.
Hope this helps
Hurdity x
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Thankyou for the replies. Yes I guess every Dr seems to have a different theory, mine def attributes a lot to my tiny frame and being underweight, including my early meno, I guess he may have a point!
One annoying thing that could also be due to being tiny is that on the Oestrogen Gel, I find that if I do not use it at a regular time, the other night I fell asleep and forgot to apply it, so in effect, I missed a day, I inevitably end up with a breakthrough bleed, argh! My Dr seems to think my body is quite senstitive to the Oestrogen, not sure but it has happened on every ocassion that I have forgotten to put it on, yet the pharmacist said that some people only use it every other day, that would def not work for me!
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Our bodies are odd aren't they? I reckon I could easily skip a day because from experience the oestrogen seems to still be effective when I've given it up for three weeks ... oh blimey that's probably due to all the fat it hangs around in ;D
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For those that use Uterogestan cyclically, I think Casey was one of them using it for x 14 days, on what day in the cycle do you start, like to be as close to the real thing back in the good ole days when my body still made its own Prog!
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What is a cycle? Don't have those.... When you are completely post meno you don't have one so it doesn't really matter! I just use the oestro for whatever length of time I think (as I said earlier in my case around 6 weeks) and then start the Utro on the 1st of every alternate month for 12 days. I could start it any time and it wouldn't make any difference ( sadly!) - ie mean sad my cycle has gone
Hurdity x
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Oh I probably worded that stupidly, sorry! I also have not had a cycle for many years, went through early meno but what I was told years ago is, to start the Utero on the day that it would usually have kicked in if one were to cycle, somewhere round the middle of the month I guess, think I used to use it from day 13 to day 26 but cannot remember but yes, I guess it would not really make much difference to us hey! :) Wonder why they said to use it like that as some ladies I know used to just use it at the start of each month.
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Both times I've tried using the 100mg dose I've started a bleed on day 7 whereas with the 200mg I lasted until day 10. The bleeding was greater on the 100mg than on the 200mg too. Perhaps that's got something to do with the weight/dose ratio too???? On norethisterone I never started bleeding until about 3 days after stopping.
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Maybe something to do with the fact that norethisterone is apparently a much stronger progestin than our own progesterone ( which utrogestan is bio-identical to)??
So far for me using 200 mg Utro the bleed has come 3 days after stopping (but don't want to speak too soon as I am on it now!). However I use it vaginally so more of it probably gets to the uterus directly so maybe has a more powerful effect?
Individuals do vary greatly in how much of the oral medication eventually gets into their blood, after digestion/metabolism.
Hurdity x
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I'm on my third month of Utro now, and after having a light bleed at the end of my first month, I haven't had a bleed since [fingers crossed] I do get "cramps" but no bleed [hope I'm not speaking to soon] I take 100mg days 1 to 25 then have a three day break, and for the first time I can honestly say I DON'T look forward to my progesterone free days, because it's like they have a *calming* effect on me and the actually help me sleep.
So it's, so far so good for me up to now concerning the Utro, fingers crossed.
cm xxx
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Am I correct in saying that one never has a break from the Oestrogen part of it, that is continuous if you are using the gel or patches together with the Utro, its just the Utro that one takes a 3 day break from or in my case 3 months! ;)
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Hi there Cassie
Yes most HRT has continuous oestrogen so the levels stay the same. I think there is one (?Trisequens) that has a reduced dose during part of the month
In our natural cycle the levels fluctuate and drop markedly during the second half of the cycle apart from a blip in the middle - but of course using HRT the levels are so much lower than during our fertile years.
Re the break from Utro:
Utrogestan is different from the other progesterone/combined HRTs in that even for continuous use there is a 3 day break (Day 25-28, and I presume this is because it is a weaker progesterone so stopping it will ensure any build-up of lining is shed ( if there is any). Those that are doing it this way are in effect using it as a continuous combined HRT - ie hopefully expecting no bleed.
However several on here have read the sicentific literature which shows that even this may not be necessary. I know some are taking it eg every other day - and of course if the oestrogen dose being taken is low, then this should be OK.
As I said even though I am 58 I am still using it cyclically because I don't want tobe on continuous prog.
Hope this helps
Hurdity X
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As far as I know Cassie, yes that's right.
I wear my Oestrogen patch every day without a break, but have a three day break from the Utrogestan. I only take 100mg Utro a night that is why I only have three days off.
cm xx
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Everyone's different, so I suppose the docs have an excuse for all the different advice!
I am on 14 days a month of 100mg Utrogestan. Continuous low dose oestrogen. So far he's not changed it.
I had a scan, womb lining was a bit thicker than last year but no-one seemed worried (scan doc nor gynae).
I don't bleed very often which gynae says is because the oestrogen is low. If I do bleed (well so far) it's during the progesterone cycle. Lots of head scratching from gynae but he is unconcerned.
He told me to start the 14 days any day I liked and could remember each month. Trying to emulate a cycle would be far too difficult to remember ;D
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Oh good I'm glad I'm not the only one who bleeds before the prog's finished!
I wish I felt like you about Utro Coffee Mate - I'm going to give it one more go before I finally throw the towel in - and I'm dreading it!
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I was prescribed the utrogestan but couldn't try it due to my soya intolerance.
I bleed before the progesterone is finished Rivadan which is why on the conti I had constant bleeding apparently. I am now on half-patches of Femseven Conti to see if this will solve the problem.
Taz x
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I really wish you luck with it Rivadan.
I was really surprised that I had finally found a prog that suited me after numerous trials with other progesterones.
I will keep my fingers crossed for you. ;)
cm xx
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I bleed before the progesterone is finished Rivadan which is why on the conti I had constant bleeding apparently. I am now on half-patches of Femseven Conti to see if this will solve the problem. Do they think that it's caused by too much estrogen or too much prog. Taz?
Bette x
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I have NO idea! :lol: :lol:
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All I can say is for me, as I've said before, it always feels like I've been filled from head to toe with progesterone! I NEVER had a feeling like that on Norethisterone and never bled on it. My problem really is that I only have one option left if I can't use Utro - Femoston 1/10. This is the only one in the Femoston range that doesn't contain some of the red colouring I'm allergic to!
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Jaycee, I've had 2 scans done about a year apart. The first one was after being on HRT for about 9 months and the lining was v thin (I did have bleeds though). Then I had another in Jan this year where the lining was quite a bit thicker which they said was the HRT, even though it's low dose, but didn't seem worried.
If you're not bleeding at all but are on HRT, it may be a good idea to have one. He wanted to see if I needed to be on 200mgs Utro. Thank goodness not for the moment anyhow. Good luck
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Loveydovey, can't you take it from a certain date every month for however many days ie I start mine on 2nd month for 14 nights?
I lived in South Africa and France before coming back to the UK. Utrogestan is the most commonly prescribed progesterone (for irregular bleeding, pre meno anyhow) in both countries. Just seems to have taken longer to catch on here although the chemist now seems to have it in stock.
My oestrogen pills have come this time in norwegian language foils which is a challenge for the brain fog ;D
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Yes that's fine - but I don't think you need to take it for 15 days - 12 days is fine as prescribed on the menu left. Maybe as you haven't used it for a while you have been advuised to start with 14 days?
You could just do it monthly ie calendar month which will give you one fewer cycle per year (ie 12 instead of 13) - and easier to remember.
Hurdity x
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I take it per calendar month. 1st or 2nd of every month etc rather than count 4 weeks. Easier!
I was put on 10 days, then 12 but as was not bleeding (I've had 1 bleed since September) he upped it to 14. I would check with your gynae how many days she wants you to take it for?
I actually feel better on it for the first 8-10 days than I do on just the oestrogen. Shows how we are all different.
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Hi old sheep
Some of us feel bad on just the oestrogen - but only for the first few days after stopping the prog - ie it is the prog withdrawal that can sometimes cause bad side effects, not the oestrogen itself. I was like that with the Cyclogest. Once the migraine had gone after stopping the Cyclo, and the prog was out of my system (well much reduced) I was fine, but I probably felt bad for 4 days on the oestro only. So this will be more noticeable in those women who are not particularly prog intolerant (to natural prog) such as myself - who feel fine when taking it, but can get the classic pmt symptoms on withdrawal ( ie the feelings some women got only the few days before the period).Trouble is in a 4 week cycle it seems a short while before having to start the prog again!
Hurdity x
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thanks Hurdity, that's v interesting to know x
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I don't quite understand why they won't cause a bleed loveydovey, if you take them for 10 days per month?
Do you mind my asking if you had endometriosis because I understand that if you have an ablation due to this then the prog is needed to stop any of the sites where the endo was occurring, from building up each month and because they are not in the womb there wouldn't be a bleed.
Maybe it is just to make sure there is no lining still left after your ablation?
Whatever the reason then it's good for you that there won't be a bleed, but I am puzzled.
Hurdity x
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Yep I was told it was a bleed regime when it was prescribed for me.
Taz x
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It does actually say on the instruction leaflet "may produce a bleed" so maybe some women are lucky enough to escape.
I only seem to have to look at the little white monsters to start bleeding!
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How old are you LD?
Taz x
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:) If you are under the age of 54 don't you have to have a bleed if you are using oestrogen to prevent endometrial cancer? I haven't read all of this thread but I don't understand why you would be allowed to be on a non-bleed HRT at your age even with having had the novasure?
Taz x :-\
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I guess you're going to have to try it and see loveydovey.
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OK I have read that even if you have had an endometrial ablation you are given progesterone in case any of the endometrium is left. I haven't read enough about it to know how many women bleed afterwards still, but maybe they cannot tell for certain if there is any left.
From my ordinary knowledge, I would have though that if there was any endometrium left - then even if it didn't cause bleeding though your normal cycle, you would be stimulating it through HRT, and therefore it need to be shed - through taking progesterone cyclically as you have been advised.
I would imagine if there is no endometrium left ie the op was completely successful, then you would not get a bleed - but you will have been prescribed it just to make sure.
As I said before any fragments remains elsewhere in your body if you had endometriosis, then you would have to have progesterone and I'm not sure even if HRT is given in these cases? Maybe continuously to stop these areas building up? Probably doesn;t apply to you loveydovey.
There is an endometrial ablation discussion forum but you might not want to look at that because it will have all the post op horror stories!
I hope that helps?
Hurdity
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That doesn't sound good. Do you get asthma? Utrogestan contains peanut oil which may cause an allergic reaction. My GP was wary of prescribing it as I'm allergic to several things.
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Its awful when you try something, are full of hope, and then it doesn't turn out. Best to be off it for now though.
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Hi loveydovey
I use it vaginally and have very few side effects. Just tiredness really - and that is to be expected from anyone using progesterone of any description. I tolerate it well so definitely worth a try. I haven.t heard of the chest tightness thing and it is not one of the few side effects listed, but as Rivadan says, maybe you are mildly allergic to the peanut oil - or maybe something else caused this feeling other than the utrogestan?
You will expect to feel fatigued and maybe a bit depressed for a few days, but as I said but you should feel no more than "normal" pre-menstural symptoms, not some of the extreme side effects that women have experienced from some of the artifical/synthetic progestins.
Hope you get it sorted!
Hurdity x
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Hi Ladies, :)
Just thought I'd update you on my never ending journey to find a tolerable HRT regime.
Last time I posted I'd thrown in the towel as it were-migraines re Utro being the culprit.
Well, after nearly three weeks of no oestrogen the hot flushes kicked in or The Boiling Flushes as I prefer to call them. You know-the ones where you want to fling open the veranda door and stand naked in the garden even though it's freezing outside. Those sorts of flushes.
I couldn't cope with sleepless nights and constant boiling so decided to start Oestrogel on the 1st of March and do Utrogestan every other night @ 100mg V route.
As expected the day after inserting the 3rd Utro a migraine developed and lasted for three days. Decided to carry on and give it a month's trail, and if more migraines occured thoughout the month then it would be time to start researching hysterctomies or jump off the nearest high cliff.
Since recovering from the initial migraine things have been good. No further migraines and after about 7 days of oestrogel the flushes stopped. So it looks of though a steady continous flow of Utro = no migraines in my case.
The other benefits have been that the Utro gives such a restful sleep. It's like being unconscience for 7 hours-wonderful. But the best thing that has happened is that the morning terrors as I call them have abated.
For about 18 months now I've been waking up in the mornings with high voltage anxiety running through me-the sort of anxiety where one thinks that every possible bad thing that could happen IS going to happen and it's going to happen today! It would lessen as the day went on but still had a general feeling of anxiety most of the time.
Anyway for a couple of weeks now I've been waking up quite calm. The anxiety during the day is much less too. So it looks as though Utrogestan is a very good anti-anxiety med-for me anyway. I did a bit of research and it turns out that Progesterone latches onto the same neuro transmitters that the benzodiazepine family target. Whether that's a good thing or not I'm not sure !
The Utro also seems to have a stimulatant effect on both my bowel and bladder. Good for me as the constipation is now gone. I do have more P's during the day though which is a bit annoying but a small price to pay for all the other benefits I appear to be experiencing. Don't know if the same benefits would happen if taken orally.
Because of all the postives I'm wondering if my body does actually need some prog running through it. It's early days I know--a build up could occur etc-but for the moment things are good. Never thought I'd make a positive post about Prog.
Bx
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That's great to hear bombus!
I am using Utro 100mg nights 1 to 25, and I noticed almost immediately how it helps me fall into a lovely peaceful sleep [something I had almost forgotten existed] Also as you say no more middle of the night or morning terrors.
I don't sleep for 7 hours but I do get at least 5-6 continuous sleep, which is like a miracle when I look back on my old sleeping habits.
Long may it continue. ;)
cm xx
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Hi CM :),
It's great to hear that you too are having a good experience with Utro.
I'm thrilled with it's anti anxiety effects! Over the past 18 months my GP has prescribed Beta Blockers--no effect, just gave me really bad indigestion. Anti D's made me worse. Diazepam just knocked me out. GP then sent me off on a CBT/Mindfulness course in the hope that I could somehow gain some control over the anxiety-it didn't work for me but did help some of the members of the group who had various anxiety disorders.
I'm amazed that a small amount of progesterone can have such a profound effect. I must stress though to anyone reading this that I'm talking about the progesterone Utrogestan and not the synthetic progestin's Norethisterone and Levonorgestrel which did in fact in my case make the anxiety very much worse.
Bx
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Hi bombus.
Yes that is true for me too.
When I was given Femoston which has Norethisterone it gave me the most awful pmt symptoms I'd ever had in my life.
The same happened when I was tried on Elleste duett [not sure which prog they have] but just awful. I was ranting and raving like a banshee!!
I really think that if the Utro hadn't had worked well for me, that I would have given up and gone cold turkey. Anything would have been better than that!
cm xx
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Great to hear another success story for Utrogestan. Having started this ever-growing thread it seems I'm one of only the few who can't stand the stuff!
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"I will be forever grateful to Candy for putting me wise to the possibility of this regime in the first place."
Hear hear - I hadn't heard of it as I used Cyclogest and would still either be suffering migrines, or having given up - raging hot flushes and lethargy!
Hurdity x
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I'm beginning to wonder whether its because I DONT suffer from anxiety and ALWAYS sleep well that Utrogestan doesn't suit me!
We need more Candys to work this out!
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I don't suffer from anxiety either...
Having sufficient oestrogen at the right dose helps me sleep - in that the flushes and sweats have stopped - but of course there are also other reasons for not sleeping well. Utrogestan just makes me sleep even deeper
Rivadan you may be one of the few unlucky women who are more progesterone intolerant than most (even to your own body's progesterone?) so will have suffered the whole of the second half of your menstrual cycle rather than the few days just before the period (which is due to the sudden drop in prog)? If you have to take prog though and the symptoms are no worse than you experienced in the past, then Utrogestan is better for you than any of the synthetic progestins as at least it will allow its other biological functions in the body to take place, whereas synthetics do not do this I understand. I probably sound like a broken record!
Rivadan have you tried using it vaginally as far less is absorbed systemically?
Howvere if you find a synthetic prog that has fewer side effects I can see you would want to take this - but I think this would be unusual?
Bombus and coffeemate - so glad it's working for you.
Actually I do think if you can tolerate it then a little is good for you (besides protecting the uterus) - just because of what I said above - that there are other biological functions of prog.
If only the right dosage can be worked out that is the minimum needed to protect the uterus - sadly I think very large doses are given because (I think I've said before) we are all different and also there is unsufficient research.
Hurdity x
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I'm in a tricky situation because although I felt great on Norethisterone the hair shedding wasn't desirable on my already hair-starved head! However I most definitely felt 100% better on it than I do on Utrogestan.
I've tried Utrogestan all ways now - orally, vaginally, every other day, monthly and bi-monthly. Orally it makes me excessively dopey and dry mouthed, vaginally it gives me cramps like period pains - doesn't matter which strength, and whatever way I'm always bleeding by day 7.
I think I did probably have PMS for half the month - I was always very bloated and irritable and made some terrible decisions during that time.
I think maybe if Utrogestan was made in very low strengths like the synthetics then it may be worth me persisting but as it is, its back to the drawing board now.
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Well you could try it Susan - nothing ventured, nothing gained as they say - and you can always switch back again can't you? Why not exploit a side effect to your advantage.
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Susan - agree it's good to wait if you have a lot on. The main diffference is unless you use utrogestan vaginally this means taking the meds by mouth -which you are not doing at the mo' with the patches.
So you may well notice this - the utro will have to go through your digestive system and liver so might take a while to settle. I seem to remember you saying the tabs upset your digestion anyway? Not sure if utro does this though?
Hurdity x
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I have to say Susan, it doesn't make me at all sleepy if I take it vaginally but nearly sedates me if I take it orally. Its certainly a strange one and something you would have to try for yourself!
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Just a bit of feedback as I am on day 12 of my 14 days of Uterogestan that I take only every 3 months. Well for one or other reason, this has been quite a rough ride in that I have experienced the following side effects:- terrible lower abdominal cramping, like bad period pains, I have had this before so its not a new side effect and disappeared after a few days, however, whereas Uterogestan always used to make me sleep well, I have been basically an insominiac since I started with this cycle of 14 tablets (using vaginally). I am sleeping but restlessly and having dreams, waking up every few hours whereas, I usually thank goodness, sleep like a baby!! Flatulence is another side effect, the farting is bad lol! And to top it all, I have been a witch from hell with my poor OH and children, so am rather looking forward, as is my poor long suffering family, to the end of this little cycle, whereafter I should get a bleed and hopefully peace will be restored to the happy home for another 3 months hehe! So interesting the way we all react in different ways, however, I would far rather be on Utero than any of the synthetics and that is just not negotiable, moods or not!! Happy Easter all!
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Oh and forgot to add to that, constipation seems worse since starting it! :(
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Oh and forgot to add to that, constipation seems worse since starting it! :(
Yes Cassie I also seem to suffer more with constipation since starting Utrogestan.
As for the farting, well, sometimes they do slip out quite unexpectedly these days, whereas before Utro, I always had "notice", then at least I could leave the room first.... ::)
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;D You lot do make me laugh!
Here's my update. Having abandoned Utro due to the side effects, I've now successfully completed 14 days of Dydrogesterone (as in Femoston) and fingers crossed, this seems to be my solution.
For those of you who may not know me I was trying Utro because I'd had to give up Norethisterone due to hair shedding, although in all other respects it was fine. I'd also tried MPA which just gave me horrendous back pain.
I'm really relieved to have found something which seems to be working. I've decided to use it cyclically as I definitely feel I'm one who's better not having prog in my system continually. Hopefully as I'm now getting on a bit and only take a low dose oestrogen the withdrawal bleeds will only be light.
This has been quite a journey (nearly a year of experimenting!) but I am at last optimistic.
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Yes same here Rivaden. Just over 12 months of experimenting with different HRT preps, and all because I just couldn't cope with the progesterone side of things.
I really hope that the Utro continues to agree with me, for as most of us know, it can be fine for a few months, and then WALLOP, it's back to square one!
cm xx
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I find that I fart, um sorry, pass wind, most of the night after inserting them, its actually quite embarrassing although we have been married forever! Speaking of which, I have a friend who is a real lady, she has been married for almost 20 years and dated her husband for a few years prior to that, she has never farted in front of him, in fact, it is a standing joke, he has promised her an all expenses trip abroad if she will and she flatly refuses, so coy and sweet, wait until she reaches menopause.....evil grin!!
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Ha Ha - and it only gets worse from here on in. My mother does it without even seeming to be aware of it nowadays (much to the amusement of her many teenage grandsons!).
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Hopefully the inability to hold in farts arrives at around the same time as the hearing and sense of smell diminishes ;D ;D
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Either that or they just dont care Taz.
I have stood in queues behind many an old buddy and heard them let rip. They dont even look embarrassed.
Honeyb
x
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That's because they can't feel or hear it!
Taz x
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Yes Susan - the muscles get slack there. Prolapse is not uncommon which is why it is very important to do those pelvic floor exercises forever.....
Taz x
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Is the lining still being shed if you haven't had a bleed? Usually lack of bleeds means that you haven't built up enough lining for there to be anything to shed. About 15% of women don't bleed on sequi HRT so maybe you're one of those. ;) Lack of bleeds isn't usually seen as a problem but any unexpected bleeding or spotting should be checked out.
Bette x
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Well, the menu on the left says that the dosage for Utrogestan is 200mg daily at bedtime for 12 days per 28 days (days 15-26 inclusive) Did your doctor prescribe it for only 7 days? Personally I wouldn't want to risk a build-up of the womb lining; maybe you could try taking it for 12 days and see what happens?
Bette x
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Maybe worth a chat the next time you see him. ;)
Bette x
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Hi meno-me
Just got back from holiday and seen your post - it depends on what your dose of oestrogel is.
The amount of build-up is what is known as dose-dependent ie the higher the dose of oestrogen, the greater the womb lining is stimulated. Usually this means therefore you need a higher dose of prog to shed it.
So how many pumps of oestrogel do you use and what's the strength of it?
He might have prescribed this amount if the dose of oestrogen you are using is very low.
Also some women - inlcuding some on here, are highly intolerant to prog and so their doc prescribes a lower dose than is licensed ie less than shown on the green menu.
It depends on your own history, cycle, where you are in meno and what your cycle was doing before you started HRT.
I did not have bleeds towards the end of a long period of about 3 1/2 years of cyclical HRT with medium dose oestrogen 50 mcg oestro ( I think this is equivalent to about 2 pumps), and 400 mcg Cyclogest ( much more prog) 11 days per month - and I was post-meno. The high dose of prog was being given but there just wasn't enough build up.
Hope this helps!
Hurdity x
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I've just read through this whole thread because I'm considering talking to my GP about Utrogestan because I appear to have a problem with progesterone.
Can I ask those who have had problems using Utrogestan if you had PMS or period problems prior to menopause?
There seems to be some ladies who do well on Utrogestan and those who don't, and I'm just trying to see if there is a pattern here. I never suffered from any period or PMS problems prior to menopause, so I was obviously coping okay with my own progesterone, so I'm hoping that means I would do okay on Utrogestan. On the other hand there may be no correlation at all, and I will just have to try it to see how I go.
Judging by what I'm reading here though I think I would prefer to use it vaginally, as I've always been a bit leery about taking any kind of HRT orally, especially after reading about the dog breath thing….lol….
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Hi Robyn
I am not one with Utrogestan problems but did want to reply
Yes interesting the pms thing
As I see it, during our menstruating years the pms can sort of be divided into 3 causes ( although they all seem to merge):
1 Reaction to the increase
in progesterone - some women are particularly sensitive to this especially when given artificially
2 Severe reaction to the progesterone itself - the unfortunate few women who are progesterone intolerant. Here I mean more than the "usual" bit of bloating a bit of tiredness etc that progesterone causes in most (?) women - eg anxiety, headaches, irritability, depression amongst other symptoms
3 The reaction to the drop in progesterone - this is what I call "classic pmt" - ie those few days of irritability, tension, headches - used to be called pre-menstrual tension because it came just before the period, until it was recognised that some women are actually "allergic" to prog itself.
I did not suffer the full pms but pmt only - my symptoms all related to the fall in prog and I could actually feel the change. Tension, headaches, tearfulness, irritability, but the prog itself was fine - I was fine during all my preganancies when prog is high too.
That is probably why I am OK on Utrogestan - the bit I was worried about was coming off it - especially as I had bad migraines on Cyclogest (the dose for this prog is very high) - particularly coming off it.
So far I have had no reaction to Utrogestan withdrawal - for the 3 cycles I have used it, and from what you say - you would seem to be a good candidate. I don't think you can compare your reaction to synthetic progestins, with natural progesterone, as the former are artificial, although of course adding the prog even if bio-identical is still an artifical thing to do and unfortunately the way it is given does not mimic the natural cycle ie we are just given a dose to take for 10 -14 days, so no wonder some women are crawling on the ceiling!
Several of the women who have had problems are actually intolerant to most prog so are v unlucky.
Will give you more details by pm
Hope this helps!
Hurdity x
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I know this is going to sound really strange but I'm going to ask anyway ,
I am on evorel conti 50 patches which contain oestrogen and prog. As this does not give you a bleed how is this keeping my lining safe .
I'm sure someone is going to give me a simple answer soon
Js
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From my way of understanding this when I asked my Dr, the combined Oestrogen and Progesterone have high enough doses of Progest which keeps the lining thin so you dont build up an excess of lining and do not need a bleed, hope that makes sense :)
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This is from the Post-meno HRT preparations section of the menu on the left:-When there are steady levels of estrogen and progestogen from daily administration of both, the womb lining stays thin. Although some bleeding in the first 6 months of therapy is common, there should not be bleeding after that and the lining does not go through the stages of stimulation and then shedding as it does during a normal cycle and with sequential therapy.
Bette x
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Does anyone else find that Utrogestan makes their eyes slightly sensitive to bright light, almost feel like I have a hangover lol, but could just be my imagination :) my meno brain working overtime!
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Hi Ladies,
I'm on 7 days of utrogestan 100mg oral route starting the 1st of each month. John Studd told me to expect a withdrawal bleed on day 10 but as it is a low dose gestogen it does not always produce a bleed. I just hope I don't end up in bed with a hideous migraine when I finish the 7 days as that's what usually happened on the other regimes I've been on.
My GP thinks I might have to have regular scans with the P being so low but that's fine with me.
I'm on day 3 of the 7 days at the moment and the only thing I've noticed is I'm sleeping really well.
Bombus.. If you ever come back on this site again please let us know how you got on