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Menopause Matters magazine ISSUE 75 out now. (Spring issue, March 2024)

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Author Topic: Question about NICE and ADs  (Read 6918 times)

GypsyRoseLee

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Question about NICE and ADs
« on: May 15, 2016, 09:39:31 AM »

I know that NICE now don't advocate prescribing ADs as first line treatment for peri menopause symptoms.

But, does anyone know if this is still the case, even if a woman doesn't exhibit hardly ANY physical symptoms of peri menopause?

What I mean is, if you are in your 40s and suddenly start suffering with anxiety and depression (like me) but still have very regular periods, no hot flushes, no VA etc does NICE still advocate HRT rather than ADs?

I just think that if you do start to suffer with anxiety and depression in your 40s, then why can't it just be treated the 'regular' way with ADs?

Or is (probably) hormonal anxiety/depression somehow different to regular anxiety/depression and won't respond to regular ADs?
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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2016, 10:58:10 AM »

My GP is of the mind that depression and anxiety need to be treated with ADs regardless of whether hormones are causing it. He says trying to treat it with HRT is too vague and random because of my own hormonal rises and falls.
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lisa789

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2016, 11:01:25 AM »

Hi GRL,

I was wondering how you've been getting on.

I'm not sure what the guidelines are but from personal experience with my GP, consultants both NHS & private all tried to put me on SSRI meds.

I suffer with panic disorder as a result of PTSD so have had a whole host of anti depressants in the past and not one helped with my anxiety. All the SSRI/SNRI meds gave me intolerable gastric side effects, the worse was venlafaxine which made me so ill I went down to 6 1/2 stone. I had mirtazipine which made me fat! The only one I liked was Trazodone as it gave me a good nights sleep but unfortunately did nothing for my anxiety. The only thing that stops my panic is diazepam but that brings addiction and tolerance issues.

Are you having a problem getting anti depressants prescribed and are they steering you in the direction of HRT?

The way I see it is if it's peri causing anxiety then it's down to hormone imbalance so I think it's the hormone imbalance that should be addressed. I think root causes should be treated not symptoms.
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lisa789

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2016, 11:03:36 AM »

My GP is of the mind that depression and anxiety need to be treated with ADs regardless of whether hormones are causing it. He says trying to treat it with HRT is too vague and random because of my own hormonal rises and falls.

Sorry our posts crossed!

I don't agree with your GP. Treat the cause first is my opinion.
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dazned

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2016, 11:58:51 AM »

I personally think that hrt is miraculous with sorting out the physical issues i.e. hot flushes,aches etc but not very good at sorting out the mood swings ,anxiety,palps,etc especially in peri.  But that's what I have experienced.
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lisa789

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2016, 12:17:31 PM »

I personally think that hrt is miraculous with sorting out the physical issues i.e. hot flushes,aches etc but not very good at sorting out the mood swings ,anxiety,palps,etc especially in peri.  But that's what I have experienced.

The oestrogen part helped me a great deal with the panic attacks as my physical symptoms such as hyperventilating improved significantly but I just couldn't tolerate the progesterone and this caused the anxiety to worsen.

I wish they would invent a drug that works like diazepam that isn't addictive and cause tolerance.
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Stella1

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2016, 01:05:09 PM »

I started suffering with anxiety, panic attacks, low mood, bouts of crying over trivial things when in my 40s & was prescribed AD (Citalopram) and found the symptoms went away completely. My doctor said that even if the symptoms were due to menopause then the treatment with ADs should sort them out & she was right in my case.
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PEONY

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2016, 01:08:31 PM »

The things is that AD's are given for a long or short a time as the women and her doctor think right.  This might only be for a few months.

HRT, on the other hand is long term, usually years.  That does not appeal to me at all.
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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2016, 01:30:59 PM »

Stella, your GP sounds like mine. He doesn't think it matters what is chemically causing anxiety or depression. You just treat it the same as any other sort and use ADs.

He pointed out that PND is very successfully treated with ADs, and that's definitely hormonal.
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Mary G

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2016, 02:30:56 PM »

GRL, I was wondering how you have been getting on.  I am sorry to say that I have no personal experience of ADs but from various things I have heard over the years and also my partner's mother's experience, it would appear that hormones and depression/anxiety are very closely linked and very often women need both ADs and HRT.

I've tried to pump my partner for as much information about his mother as I can but being a bloke, he's not that switched on to this kind of thing.  She had PMS, PND and depression/anxiety all her life but it much got much worse once peri menopausal.  We are not sure but we think she tried to take her own life on at least one occasion.  She was on HRT and Prozac (after telling the doctor she was suicidal) and then she finally had the mother of all breakdowns when she was 50.  She was admitted to A&E and ended up in a psych ward and they really didn't know what to do with her.  She had the most horrendous, enormous ovarian cysts and they thought she had  encephalitis at one point and in my opinion, she should have had a full hysterectomy at that point.  To cut a very long story short, she struggled on for many years with what is now a very outdated form of HRT and ADs and spent most of her time in bed. 

She finally had a full hysterectomy 10 years ago following a prolapse and yet more ovarian cysts and what a difference.  She is still on HRT (oestrogen only I believe) and apparently wishes she had had the hysterectomy years ago.  I only get this second hand because she is not comfortable discussing it with me. 

My personal view is that you need to get a proper diagnosis with extensive blood tests, get on the right AD and then start to filter in the hormones as and when your own levels drop.  You will need both if you suffer from PMS and anxiety because (sorry to be doom and gloom) women with PMS rarely do well with the menopause and need hormones.  This has to be worth a try. 

If all else fails (sorry, but I am going to be very blunt here) and if it was me, I really would be considering a full hysterectomy (the whole lot including ovaries) to spare myself the rollercoaster of hormone spikes and to get an even keel.  Once you rid yourself of your own hormones (the progesterone being the worst offender and a hormone you need to rid yourself of) you can then pump in the ones you need and avoid the spikes that are causing all these problems.  You may well need ADs too but how can you be any worse off? 

I know that Professor Studd thinks that a hysterectomy should not be viewed negatively and only as a last resort and I agree with him.
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MIS71MUM

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2016, 02:42:03 PM »

Hello

Not sure of the answer but I started with anxiety and depression in my 40's with few physical symptoms and irregular periods and I was treated with AD's.

How are you getting on?
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Briony

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2016, 03:46:19 PM »

I was wondering how you were as well  :)

This isn't NICE related, but was produced by NAPS/Nick Panay - there's reference to anti depressants towards the end. This is with regard to PMS, rather than peri-menopause, but I think it's still very relevant (especially given your lack of physical symptoms):

http://www.pms.org.uk/assets/files/guidelinesfinal60210.pdf


Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs)
There is increasing evidence that serotonin may be important in the causality of PMS. A number of SSRIs
have been used to treat severe PMS/PMDD. There are also data suggesting improvement of physical symptoms
with SSRIs though this is probably due to the improved perception rather than genuine reduction in
symptom severity. A meta-analysis of all available randomised controlled trials involving SSRIs used in
premenstrual syndrome confirmed superior efficacy compared with placebo.
The Commission on Human Medicines endorses the view that SSRIs are effective medicines in the treatment
of depression and anxiety conditions and that the balance of risks and benefits in adults remains positive
in their licensed indications. Prescribing should be restricted to those health professionals who have a
particular expertise in this area. Randomised studies have now shown that half-cycle SSRI treatment is as
efficacious as continuous administration. The results of a recent trial showed that the total premenstrual
scores were lower in the luteal-phase dosing group in each of the three treatment months but the differences
were not statistically significant from full-cycle dosing group. Further analysis of each of the symptoms
showed significant differences (P < 0.05) in favour of luteal-phase dosing for mood swings, nervous tension,
feeling out of control and confusion.
The importance of this is that PMS sufferers are less likely to develop dependence on this regimen, benefit
is immediate and women are more likely to accept the treatment as it can be regarded as being different
from the regimens used for psychiatric disorders. In the author‟s opinion, the optimum regimens for PMS
are half-cycle citalopram or escitalopram, 20mg per day from day 15 to day 28 of the cycle. This regimen
appears to be effective even in women whose previous SSRI treatment has failed. Severe PMS also improves
significantly with either luteal-phase or symptom-onset dosing of escitalopram with good tolerability.
Recommendation A:
In view of their proven efficacy and safety in adults, SSRIs should be considered one of the first line
pharmaceutical management options in severe PMS.




I can see the logic that, regardless of the cause, you need to treat the symptoms to get some relief (especially short term) in which case ADs - if you can find the right one to suit your needs - can really help. This was certainly the case for me (tried a few until I got the right one). However, in your case, it does seem that the cause is still hormonal, despite your lack of physical symptoms, and that ultimately, it's your hormones that need to be tamed.

Rememberer how well you originally responded to the pill: "But just to say, still feeling really good on the BCP. This has been one of the best weekends I have spent in years. I am going for hours and hours now actually forgetting that I have been so ill with my hormones these last 2 years. There was a time where it was all I could really think about because it loomed over everything and anything. My skin is really good too, so soft and smooth. No libido though. But I am hoping this might come back a bit in time?
I took my last tablet last night and have decided to give myself just a 4 day break. Hopefully enough to give me a bleed and enough to stop a build up of too much progesterone? But not long enough to give me too much of a withdrawal dip from the oestrogen either? It's going to be a bit of trial and error. I have decided not to update my diary every day from now on. I hope what I have posted has been useful.
".

 - If it was solely a psychological problem, you wouldn't have responded so positively to the pill at first, surely?
 The reason I am saying this is maybe you need to consider a two pronged approach. Treat the psychological symptoms with ADs, then where you're feeling ready, try a hormonal route as well as the AD. I needed the AD to give me the confidence to stick with a hormonal treatment longer term, if that makes sense? I would never have persevered with different pills if I hadnt had the initial boost from ADs.

Reading this through, I am not sure I am making much sense .... but hope it just may be helpful!

B xx
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lisa789

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2016, 04:12:00 PM »

That's really interesting Briony. I can't imagine stopping and starting SSRI's like that as they can give unpleasant start up effects that can take 4-6 weeks to settle down and you're supposed to taper the withdrawal over several months.
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Briony

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2016, 04:22:47 PM »

Lisa, I didnt explain very clearly - sorry. I didnt start and stop just like that. I was put on them originally for pain relief, Amitriptyline and then Cymbalta with a few months between. Coming off Cymbalta  (due to realising my pain was caused by hormones, not nerve damage) was hideous and took a while. Part of the process involved using Prozac as a bridging drug (something to do with half-lives). Prozac seemed to really help with PMS. It wasnt until later that I realised it can be prescribed for PMS/PMDD so I stuck on it for much longer at a very low dose.
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lisa789

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Re: Question about NICE and ADs
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2016, 05:03:00 PM »

Lisa, I didnt explain very clearly - sorry. I didnt start and stop just like that. I was put on them originally for pain relief, Amitriptyline and then Cymbalta with a few months between. Coming off Cymbalta  (due to realising my pain was caused by hormones, not nerve damage) was hideous and took a while. Part of the process involved using Prozac as a bridging drug (something to do with half-lives). Prozac seemed to really help with PMS. It wasnt until later that I realised it can be prescribed for PMS/PMDD so I stuck on it for much longer at a very low dose.

Oh poor you I've had duloxetine/cymbalta before & it's terrible to get off. I felt like I was getting electric shocks into my brain. Well done for getting off it though as its very unpleasant X
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